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Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft (/Thread-Dark-Knight-Dragooon-LW160BSF-Draft)

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RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Angry Face - Dec. 21, 2013

I've personally got a few qualms with the LW160 section of this article...


(Feb. 11, 2013  12:20 AM)UGottaCetus Wrote: This part's counterpart, 160, albeit not having as much Stamina as LW160 in left spin, does not suffer from the same destabilization problems. The Downward Force effect produced by the wings in right spin does not prove greater than 160. Thus, because of the fact that the strong phenomenon produced by the wings is neutralized in left spin due to destabilization, this Track only helps when used on a left-spinning combination in battle against a Beyblade with a taller Track.

LW160 section states:
  • > LW160 has better Stamina than 160 in Left-Spin
    > LW160 has worse Stamina than 160 in Right-Spin
But do we actually have tests or tournament testaments by members to back either of these claims? Or are we just making assumptions? This is the only direct comparison between the two that I know of, and, while it's not much, it's totally contrary to the claim underlined in blue. :\


Also:
  • > "Because of the fact that the strong phenomenon produced by the wings is neutralized in left spin due to destabilization, this Track only helps when used on a left-spinning combination in battle against a Beyblade with a taller Track."
    • 1. Down Force effect is neutralized in Left-Spin due to destabilization
      2. Track only helps when used in Left-Spin against a taller opponent
My issue with this sentence is that it's not entirely clear on what direction the opponent should be in.

The first point, while specifying the use of LW160 in Left-Spin, does not specify the spin-direction or height of the Beyblade destabilizing it. Were LW160 on a Left-Spin combo facing a lower, Right-Spin Beyblade, then, yes, the LW160 combo would be more likely to be destabilized, with the Right-Spin combo having the advantage of spin-equalization to aid in its destabilizing. However, it's not destabilization that nullifies the Down Force effect in this instance, but rather spin-equalization. Were that same Left-Spin combo faced with another lower, Left-Spin Beyblade, while the lower combo would have the ability to destabilize the LW160 combo, the Down Force effect would still be present, though, it simply wouldn't be as effective because of the height match-up.

Same with the second point, specifying the use of LW160 in Left-Spin, but not the direction of its opponent. Sure, the Left-Spin LW160 combo would probably be more likely to beat out a Right-Spin combo on a Track taller than its. However, as far as I know, we have no testing to show how LW160 performs in Left-Spin against other Left-Spin combos on higher Tracks, so I couldn't say anything pertaining to that with certainty.


(Feb. 11, 2013  12:20 AM)UGottaCetus Wrote: However, LW160 can serve as a replacement for customs that normally use 160, such as Duo Cygnus 160PD, a Balance type combo.

Duo Cygnus 160PD = Balance

KluelessKen

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - UGottaCetus - Dec. 23, 2013

Kai-V, yes I did copy and paste your edit, and I added the changes you suggested. But I will change the draft based on ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)'s response in a few days.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - UGottaCetus - Dec. 26, 2013

(Dec. 21, 2013  9:53 PM)ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) Wrote: Also:
  • > "Because of the fact that the strong phenomenon produced by the wings is neutralized in left spin due to destabilization, this Track only helps when used on a left-spinning combination in battle against a Beyblade with a taller Track."
    • 1. Down Force effect is neutralized in Left-Spin due to destabilization
      2. Track only helps when used in Left-Spin against a taller opponent
My issue with this sentence is that it's not entirely clear on what direction the opponent should be in.

The first point, while specifying the use of LW160 in Left-Spin, does not specify the spin-direction or height of the Beyblade destabilizing it. Were LW160 on a Left-Spin combo facing a lower, Right-Spin Beyblade, then, yes, the LW160 combo would be more likely to be destabilized, with the Right-Spin combo having the advantage of spin-equalization to aid in its destabilizing. However, it's not destabilization that nullifies the Down Force effect in this instance, but rather spin-equalization. Were that same Left-Spin combo faced with another lower, Left-Spin Beyblade, while the lower combo would have the ability to destabilize the LW160 combo, the Down Force effect would still be present, though, it simply wouldn't be as effective because of the height match-up.

Same with the second point, specifying the use of LW160 in Left-Spin, but not the direction of its opponent. Sure, the Left-Spin LW160 combo would probably be more likely to beat out a Right-Spin combo on a Track taller than its. However, as far as I know, we have no testing to show how LW160 performs in Left-Spin against other Left-Spin combos on higher Tracks, so I couldn't say anything pertaining to that with certainty.


(Feb. 11, 2013  12:20 AM)UGottaCetus Wrote: However, LW160 can serve as a replacement for customs that normally use 160, such as Duo Cygnus 160PD, a Balance type combo.

Duo Cygnus 160PD = Balance

KluelessKen

Ok, so let me try to explain some of this.

I don't believe that the spin direction really matters as long as the opponent is tall enough that make contact with the track of your bey. I could be wrong, but like you said, theres not really much testing on this track, so Im just going off of the general fact that if the opponents bey is taller than your bey, there will be little - no track contact, so the track will still perform better. But we still dont know, so should I specifically mention right spin or leave that point out altogether? I personally think the first option would be better, but I'd rather have you guys thoughts on it first.

As for Duo 160PD, I'll change it to Stamina type.

As for the first part of your replay(not quoted), I will remove the sentence underlined in blue.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - th!nk - Jan. 05, 2014

So guys there are actually at least two different molds of Dragooon from Takara Tomy.

That post covers everything relevant that I know so far, but yeah, almost 2g difference is pretty massive for a ~30g wheel (most good HWS wheels are over 30g, but dragooon *can* get an extra 2g on what most of those can with the heavier Crystal Wheels).

LAST MINUTE DEVELOPMENTS IN BEYWIKI DRAFTS ARE THE BEST AM I RIGHT GUYS?

Also personally I'd change "With three heads, Dragooon strongly resembles most L-Drago Wheels, especially since it's a left-spin Chrome Wheel." to a more specific reason for their resemblance (left spin dragon-based wheels, perhaps even that Dragooon is supposed to be a continuation of the L-Drago Line based on what Sakyo says about inheriting L-Drago's Magical Anime Power or w/e it is).

EDIT: Didn't want to make a new post without actually highlighting the differences, but did want to say that I'll do that for you tonight or tomorrow.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Kai-V - Jan. 06, 2014

(Jan. 05, 2014  1:23 PM)th!nk Wrote: So guys there are actually at least two different molds of Dragooon from Takara Tomy.

That post covers everything relevant that I know so far, but yeah, almost 2g difference is pretty massive for a ~30g wheel (most good HWS wheels are over 30g, but dragooon *can* get an extra 2g on what most of those can with the heavier Crystal Wheels).

LAST MINUTE DEVELOPMENTS IN BEYWIKI DRAFTS ARE THE BEST AM I RIGHT GUYS?

Also personally I'd change "With three heads, Dragooon strongly resembles most L-Drago Wheels, especially since it's a left-spin Chrome Wheel." to a more specific reason for their resemblance (left spin dragon-based wheels, perhaps even that Dragooon is supposed to be a continuation of the L-Drago Line based on what Sakyo says about inheriting L-Drago's Magical Anime Power or w/e it is).

So wait, what exactly is different visually in the mould ? I think I see differences, but it could just be a variation of the lighting. Also, since both are from TAKARA-TOMY, that would mean that within just BBG-16 releases, they had enough time to create a new mould ?

Knowing what is different visually, it will be easier to see what Hasbro's mould is.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - th!nk - Jan. 09, 2014

I should've just written this out in the first place, but the easiest way to identify which you have is the jaw at the top of the two underside images. Note how the first one one has an outline and therefore three steps down to the bottom (heavy mold), whereas the second one lacks an outline and therefore just has two steps (light mold). That's the key. I can circle/highlight stuff if wanted and I'll try to find time to retake those pictures in better light for beywiki.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Kai-V - Jan. 09, 2014

(Jan. 09, 2014  7:16 AM)th!nk Wrote: I can circle/highlight stuff if wanted and I'll try to find time to retake those pictures in better light for beywiki.

That would be great, yes.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Nocto - Jan. 09, 2014

I think I see what you mean, th!nk.
Spoiler (Click to View)
My heaviest Dragooons range between ~30.90 g and ~31.00 g; my lightest between ~29.33 g and ~29.55 g.
I'm not going to tell outright which are which: if people guess correctly, then we'll know we have a satisfactory explanation.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - th!nk - Jan. 09, 2014

Yeah, you understood my explanation. I assume you wanted me to guess but just in case I was supposed to leave it for others, I'll spoiler my answer.
Spoiler (Click to View)

Assuming I'm correct, do let me know if you'd rather take the pictures yourself, you're much better equipped to do so (especially a good side-on thickness comparison) and highlight the differences, judging from your past work.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Nocto - Jan. 09, 2014

You are indeed correct (do try to guess before you open the spoilers, people), but
Spoiler (Click to View)
And yes, I can take them. I'll have them up in a few hours, edited in this post if no one replies before then.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Tri - Jan. 09, 2014

Spoiler (Click to View)


RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Nocto - Jan. 09, 2014

The way I see the difference is like waves and lightning bolts, one is more sinuous, the other has straighter lines.

Anyway,
here are the first shots: (Click to View)
Nitpick like hell, it's important.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Kai-V - Jan. 09, 2014

Personally, for the flat side by side photograph, I would place them in the same position; it just makes visual comparison easier.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - UGottaCetus - Jan. 09, 2014

Thanks for including pics, now I have check and see which mold I have. The only thing is, now that we know that there are two molds, even though there looks to be no real significance, should we test them to see the difference?

Also, to anybody, what would be your response to my question posed in my last post on this thread regarding whether or not to mention spin-direction as part of the LW160 section?

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Nocto - Jan. 10, 2014

(Jan. 09, 2014  7:29 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Personally, for the flat side by side photograph, I would place them in the same position; it just makes visual comparison easier.

Heh, I'd figure having the the differences closer to each other would make them easier to analyze. But still:
Spoiler (Click to View)

Has it been tested, UGottaCetus? If not, don't include it. It's not extremely important anyway, a Track that high and that compact (without a gimmick that can use CF or GCF as some sort of anchor) probably isn't going to be that useful for primarily Attack-shaped wheels, which have to be built around Spin-Equalization to be useful for that purpose, unlike things like Phantom or Death, which can use remotely Stamina-ish parts and still be somewhat decent.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Kai-V - Jan. 10, 2014

(Jan. 10, 2014  6:20 PM)Nocto Wrote: Heh, I'd figure having the the differences closer to each other would make them easier to analyze. But still:

Hm, that is not how my mind works with mirror images, but if anybody disagrees and wants the other photograph, I am definitely open to the idea.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - th!nk - Jan. 10, 2014

I prefer to have them oriented identically, personally.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Nocto - Jan. 10, 2014

That's fine with me, and since you didn't say anything else, I'm assuming you're seeing what you wanted (people) to see?

Oh, and UGottaCetus, your Gallery section is outdated, so be sure not to copy that part when the article gets approved.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - UGottaCetus - Jan. 12, 2014

Can you possibly post the links of the images so I can add them ,or did someone already make a new gallery with these pics in them?

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - [)ragon - Jan. 21, 2014

Well, can't upload pictures at the moment, but from looming at the underside of my 3 Dragooons, it would appear that I have 2 of the heavier Takara mold. They look identical. I don't seem to have one of the lighter mold.

My third Dragooon is Hasbro, and looks literally exactly identical in every way to Nocto's (save the black color. Mine is from the original starter).

This is really interesting. I wish I had good camera and a scale. XD

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - th!nk - Jan. 22, 2014

The Supreme One posted her pictures here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Dragooon-Discussion?pid=1190382#pid1190382

Both of them - one SonoKong, and one Hasbro, look to be the heavier mold.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - UGottaCetus - Jan. 23, 2014

Thanks th!nk. Will those images work for the draft, as in, will they actually show the images on it. I have to see which mold I have, but my Dragoon is battle damaged so I would need the images of the lighter one as a link or something that would show up on the draft. In the meantime, I have to get to work editing the Dragoon article with this new info.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - Kai-V - Jan. 25, 2014

If needed, send me a private message to notify me once everything will have been edited and that the draft should be complete.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - UGottaCetus - Jan. 25, 2014

Thanks, but I could still use some help regarding what to put in the LW160 section about spin direction's effect on the parts usefulness.

RE: Dark Knight Dragooon LW160BSF Draft - [)ragon - Jan. 26, 2014

(Jan. 25, 2014  9:00 PM)UGottaCetus Wrote: Thanks, but I could still use some help regarding what to put in the LW160 section about spin direction's effect on the parts usefulness.

IIRC Ingulit tested LW160PD with Duo a while back and got great results. I'd PM him about it, as I only heard about it briefly.

It was actually on the tier list he proposed back in June 2013. Duo (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) (LW160/160) PD.

That said, if he considered it top-tier worthy, I can't imagine it has much of a negative effect on right-spin.