World Beyblade Organization
Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Printable Version

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RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Kai-V - Feb. 29, 2012

For your first question, you should use the Purchase Consultation topic.

For your other question, there are none, because most of what CoroCoro says is just sensationalist nonsense. Plus, it is nothing we do not know already. If you are talking about the manga though, since there is apparently an exclusive manga about Ryuto in the Strongest Dragonis 4D Guide, then I could translate it if you give me scans.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Ga' - Feb. 29, 2012

Nope, check their discussion threads. Omega is better than Divine, but both are still rather meh.

I think this belongs in BMAC, because that includes combo/part appraisal. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Karl - Feb. 29, 2012

(Feb. 29, 2012  5:18 AM)Kai-V Wrote: If you are talking about the manga though, since there is apparently an exclusive manga about Ryuto in the Strongest Dragonis 4D Guide, then I could translate it if you give me scans.
If you could translate it that would be wonderful! I'll get you the scans when I get the chance. I hope it's no trouble cause if it is you dOn't have to. I'll pm the scans to you as soon as I can make them. I'm typing from my iPhone so obviously I can't make them now lol. Thank you!



RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - th!nk - Feb. 29, 2012

(Feb. 27, 2012  10:51 PM)LeonTempestXIII Wrote: Agian, to clarify, Upper Attack is simply the lifting of the bey. No Smash Attack is necisarily involved, an it normaly likened to a beyblade moving up a ramp. If smash is involved, it is not necisarily Upward Smash, as the bey willl be traveling "up the ramp", so it is likely that it is just normal smash.

Upward Smash refers to an exposed part facing in a general upwards direction on an angle, that when it makes contact with the opposing bey from below, will esentialy detabilize it, and sometimes result in the bey being lifted off the ground if enough recoil is produced. However, when lifting occurs with Upward Smash, this is not considered Upper Attack, as it is not traveling "up the ramp"(?) However because MFB is heavier than other series, and because contact time is minimal, it is unlikely that lifting from Upward Smash will occur. Unlike Upper Attack, which is only possible when the beys are in the same spin direction, Upward Smash is not limited in the same way, and like any smash attack, can be used in any situation, so long as the bey is capable of it from the start. Spin direction for Uppward Smash is irrelevant.

Is that about right?

As for Earh Virgo, it was lifted. Not high or as much as the lighter beys I used, granted, but liftend nonetheless. And seeing how Midnight is shaped, I would assume it was Upper Attack(?)

The definition is not fully agreed upon, but upper attack is generally considered lifting a beyblade and then knocking it out of the stadium. The smash that does the latter is considered part of upper attack. The KOing hit comes after the lift. For Upward Smash, the KOing hit provides the lift due to the angle it is applied at, so the Smash comes at the same time as the force that lifts the opponent (as they are the same thing).

What I think causes the lack of upper attack in MFB is that they're too 'smashy', the contact time is far too short to lift an opponent, and furthermore, weight distribution is less controllable so it is difficult to create a beyblade that will almost certainly have a higher RPM than its opponent at a given moment in battle, which is generally desired for effective upper attack.

Upper Attack is perfectly possible in the opposite spin direction, it is just less effective as it's harder to get enough lift. It is possible, however, to focus a combination on using the smaller amount of lift produced in opposite spin more efficiently, and this provides the (apparently mind-breaking to those used to the dull conventional upper attack combinations) ability to use upper attack effectively in opposite spin. This is mainly done to combine upper attack with the benefits of opposite spin, mainly spin stealing.
Such combinations are less effective against same-spin opponents (though probably better than traditional upper attack is against opposite-spin). These combinations are quite specific and I'm yet to see one occur outside plastics.

Anyway, it was still probably upward smash, I have a hard time believing that, given both are launched at full power, midnight is able to offer upper attack. I'd have to look at it myself/in slow-mo, but I lack a properly functional right-spin launcher at the moment, and I'm also rather busy right now.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - LeonTempest - Feb. 29, 2012

Kai-V: I dont consider Thermal water related, just because the design was based off Pisces, Thermal refears to heat

@th!nk: Sorry I keeep summerizing and re-stating what you say, but it is for my own personal benifit. By breaking apart your explination, seperating it, simplifying it, analyzing and comprehending it, and then reconstructing it, I understand it a whole lot better than just saying "yes I agree." I hope that has not annoyed you in anyway. Not to be negative, but I also have little confidence in my own knowlage at times, and I always like to here someone confirm what I have said. That why I know what I have said is ok, and I dont spread false info. I didnt do it this time though, because the comments I have involve me analyzing it anyway, plus now that we have been over it a few times, I am more familair with the distinctions. Thanks =D

(the next 4 sections of this post are all part of one thought process, so sorry if it seems very disorganized and jumbled up)

I do not think Midnight meets the requirments for Upward Smash attributes, only Upper Attack. Midnight consists of 2 slopes, and once the opposing bey is lifted from the slope, the upper part of the metal wheel would make contact, no?

However, now that I think about, specificly in the case of Earth Virgo, it was lifted, but it did not go anywhere other than almost directly upwards. Now that may have been because Earth and GB145 absorbed alot of the impact, but Midnight kept pace with it for the duration of the start of the battle. It was almost like watching someone craplily dribble a soccor ball, in a sense, which is wierd for MFB, with the low contact time and all. Does this mean that Upper Attack did occur, and that the smash portion of it was nullified by Earth Virgo itself, or maybe it was Upward Smash, but Earth Virgo resisted enough to prevent getting thrashed around?

Inferno Byxis went flying of course once lifted, even with the grip of RS. but it being thrown around may have been because of the high recoil produced and its light weight, and not because of a smash attack mid-air like with upper attack.

In that case, with what I have seen Midnight been doing, this would be neither Upper Attack nor Upward Smash, but something in between the 2, something that is unique to MFB because of the low contact times?

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - th!nk - Feb. 29, 2012

Any wheel with slopes can exhibit upward smash. Upward smash is smashing the opponent with an angled contact point, so it perfectly fits those requirements.

That said, from your description, yes, it is possible that that was upper attack, as upward smash will normally push an opponent away, not up. That said, as you can see it wasn't particularly effective.

As for what happened with Inferno Byxis, that sounds more like upward smash, but yeah. It's not impossible at all for a wheel to do both.

I guess it could be between the two, it's kind of a spectrum on which we mark major points based on the relative time of the lift and the "hit".

Upper Attack, the lift happens first, followed by the hit.
The weird plastic combo, the lift happens first, but the smash is there, however, the lift has the first effect, and the "smash" effect takes place after the lift effect, so in effect, it is upper attack, as there is first the lift and then once lifted, the smash.
Upward Smash: the lift is caused by the hit, it hits in an upward-angled direction. Basically, it's smash in a slightly different direction.
Smash is just a hit.


Let's be honest here though, I'm not great at physics and I haven't seen what's going on with your beys myself so I'm rather limited here.


EDIT: Okay I managed to dig up my Beylauncher (though it's string is shortened and it isn't smooth because there's a knot of frayed string), and give a shot at upper attack/upward smash in similar settings. Firstly, Metal System Bull is, as usual, better at everything than midnight, but anyway. I did manage to see some upper attack, yes. Very few KO's from it, but I did see what you described. Most of the KO's came from upward smash, as far as I could tell (as I said, upward smash and upper attack look similar, because overall they have a similar effect, but Upper Attack looks more like a "bounce out" than a "knock out".) So yes, both M.S. Bull and Midnight can exhibit some amount of upper attack, but it's far less significant than their upward smash, because the contact time and so on isn't there, and they don't really have any "smash" to follow it up with to make it effective. I think the latter is the main restriction, the only smash comes from the slopes themselves, and if it's powerful enough you generally see upward smash instead, as it hits hard enough to KO before lifting, whereas otherwise it just doesn't hit hard enough to KO, and just lifts the opponent (which is basically destabilisation).

I need to revise my upper attack/upward smash thing, but yeah, the lines do blur, but upper attack just isn't an efficient tactic in MFB for a few reasons, the design of attack wheels (lacking the smash to follow up), the short contact time, the lack of significant control of weight distribution, and the control of height, which makes it much harder for upper attackers to get under anything/lift opponents properly.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - LeonTempest - Feb. 29, 2012

I thought Upward Smash required angles that face up towards the enemy bey? To give you a mental image of what I mean, picture the contact points on the Storm wheel, but facing upwards, not downwards. An even better mental image would be reversing the slopes on Midnight, so that the highest point on the slope is hitting the enemy bey 1st on an upward angle, rather than the lowest point 1st and having the bey travel up the ramp.

It seems that with Earth Virgo, regardless of if upper attack or upward smash was occuring, after being lifted, it did not move much. Meanwhile, with Inferno Byxis, the bey was lifted and thrown. I will have to do the battles agian and observe what is really happening, and just tell you what I observed when I do them. Now the problem here is that I was batteling on 2 opposite sides of the spectrum; one set of battles was agianst an overly heavy bey, while the other was against an overly lightweight bey. because of this, if I test just beys like that agian, I will not be able tosee what is actualy occuring. I willl have to test those, and a 3rd bey, probobly a combo of my own creation.

So assuming Upper Attack in MFB was not so flawed, the definition of Plastics Upper Attack is different as compared to MFB? The lifting and then smashing time frame in plastics is much quicker than in MFB?

I am not great at physics either, but I do like it. Sorry I dont have a youtube account or a video camera so I cant post a video for you. (I used to have a youtube account but after that whole mess with gmail and youtube i just never went on my account agian)

This last bit is just a theory, but it is a possibility. I was using Midnight Bull 125SF in the Hasbro Lightning Force Stadium. Midnight's properties we have already discussed. Bull is a great CW for almost any type due to its weight, and is one of the better CW & Legend Bey Metal Wheel combos (for midnight). 125 is a decent track height, and while outclassed by the more true to their nature tracks (low heights for attack, higher for def/stamina) these mid-heights have uses with balance combos. SF is tier 1 in the Hasbro meta, and on top of that, works well to destabalize, which is done with Upper Attack or Upward Smash. Now, attack types in hasbro stadiums are all about bashing the carp out of thier enimies until they are dead, as KOing is to difficult to be an effective style of battle because of the crappy pockets and no other form of exits. The stadium itself is basicly like a cage. If your sliding shoot launch is good enough, your attack type bey will be sent flying everwhere, hitting wall after wall. Because high recoil wheels, like Rock or Midnight, are effective in this bash attack style, more irratic movement is created. because there are virtualy no KOs, wouldnt this allow more contact time to occur overall durring the battle? And more contact time would result in the higher success rate of Upper Attack and Upward Smash, right?

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - th!nk - Feb. 29, 2012

That's Force Smash. Upward Smash causes the opponent to travel Upward, hence the name. Force Smash just has a stupid name because Takara decided to call it that instead of "Downward Smash" or something.

My Earth Virgo was KO'd numerous times from smash due to BS having no grip, but then I put Midnight Bull/Bull on RF to exaggerate the effects as midnight couldn't deliver solid hits on plastic tips.

Upper Attack is the same thing everywhere. It would be faster in MFB because the RPM's are much higher, therefore it takes less time to get an opponent up a slope. However, it also means there can be more variance between two beyblade's RPMs, so the opponent can have much higher RPM's than the upper attacker, making it much harder to execute upper attack effectively.

Don't worry, a video wouldn't help much. I don't know if you saw, but I managed to try it myself and edited my findings into my last post.

Honestly, bull (cw) gives pretty bad clearance on midnight, and I saw it get in the way a few times. Try Byxis.

Destabilising is basically weak upper attack or just hitting from below in general.

No, contact time is not a total throughout the battle, it is a set thing in each collision, and each collision is separate from the next.


RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - LeonTempest - Feb. 29, 2012

Downward smash/force smash would have what I described, but facing in a downward direction, right? That would mean Upward Smash is the same thing but up? Another way to think about it would be Upward Smash is a blunt fist traveling upward? (Downward/Force Smash is a blunt fist traveling downward)

Were you using a Hasbri stadium or BB-10. if BB-10, then yes, a true competative attack tip like RF would be better. I haven't tried RF in Lightning Force with Midnight yet. I will have to do that too. RF is not as useless in hasbro meta as many originaly thought.

I saw your post after you edited, so I did not miss a thing. Wink

Good thing I have a spare Byxis. I will have to try that tomarrow after work. maybe this time around, Midnight Byxis D125RF? D125 would be for some weight lost by taking away Bull. Should I add in an MF?

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - th!nk - Feb. 29, 2012

Well, force smash is kind of like upper attack but downwards, though there is smash in it too.
Upward smash is literally smashing an opponent at an angle that is significantly elevated (compared to the horizontal/flat plane).

I don't have a hasbro stadium currently, I gave mine away, BB-10 it was.

Go lower, if you want to get under stuff. I was using 100 and 85, I found 100 did better against some things because it made for better contact against 130, I think I used with inferno, but 85 was better against earth virgo because it's not raised and so almost all I got with 100 was side-on hits. RF is kinda tall though.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - LeonTempest - Feb. 29, 2012

The lowest I have right now is 100. If I had my way, and I went to the TRU beyblade promotion (which I didnt get too, despite going to the city Unhappy) I would have had 90 or 85 by now. Sadly, I do not.

I will try testing, or rather observing, what I can after work tomarrow. Midnight's base is a relativly flat wheel, so 100 should present very little issues with stadium floor scrapes. Midnight Byxis 100__(will experiment with a few other flat series tips)

As much as I enjoy helping the Hasbro community, if I had to give away my SVS and Lightning Force for the crapiest, most beat up BB-10, I would do it.

RF would explain why it worked so well on a track like 85, but I wouldnt use it with anything higher than 90, given the current state of the TT game. 100RF is basicly outclassed anyway, although I would image it still has some use

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Janstarblast - Feb. 29, 2012

Not really worth the mention but -
Just like there is a difference in Upward Smash and Upper Attack, there are a few specifications in Force Smash too, if one is to follow the technical definition of Force Smash.
Force Smash uses downward facing slopes and weight to push the opponent down.
Just as Upper Attack is rare in MFB, so is Force Smash.
Even then, another form of attack which performs almost the same function as force smash is Wobble Attack, which, IMO, should be counted as the opposite of upper smash.
In Upper smash we see a Bey being smashed upwards. In wobble attack we see a Bey (technically) being smashed downwards. Smile
So Upper Attack's opposite is force smash, while opposite of Upward Smash must be Wobble attack, no?
For the latter there are two similarities I can point p out -
Both Smash things upwards/downward.
Both occur when one hits the other at an angle.
So technically, wobble attack should be the opposite of upper smash, no?


Both

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - th!nk - Feb. 29, 2012

Yeah, something like that, but then I don't think there was ever a real distinction between force smash being a downward smash (as it's name suggests) or the opposite of upper attack (the opponent riding the slope downwards or whatever). Wobblers generally use force smash against their opponents, too.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Janstarblast - Feb. 29, 2012

There's no clear distinction as of yet, yes. Smile
But if we were to compare the BeyWiki definitions of Upper Attack and force smash, then they do seem to be exactly opposite forms of attack. BeyWiki does speak of force smash being a slope based attack. On the other hand wobble attack depends on angled hits from above to smash an opponent underneath. MP slopes are seen. Smile
So we may not say that wobble attack uses force smash tbh.
Then again, the two are extremely unimportant forms of attack, and hence probably not worth the mention, as we would end up spamming this thread... Smile
EDIT. - The distinction between force smash and upper attack is found on comparing their BeyWiki articles. The wobble attack-upper smash distinction is just my personal belief, as I said earlier. Smile
And yes, even I wonder as to why force smash is called force smash when it actually has no smash...

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - PunkBlader - Feb. 29, 2012

My friend gave ma a dranser F. The attack ring has a slight crack on it. Will superglue do the trick?

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Luck - Feb. 29, 2012

as far as i know , yeah it should, but it probly isnt legal anymore

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - nationsbeyblade - Feb. 29, 2012

how does l drago (or any other left spin bey) spin steal?

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Hyper27 - Feb. 29, 2012

Meteo L Drago, Ultimate Meteo L Drago, L Drago Destroy, and L Drago Guardian are the only left spin beys that "Spin Steal". This Happens due to the Rubber on the Energy Ring that equalizes the opposing beys spin and its spin, so it really should be called spin equalizing.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - nationsbeyblade - Feb. 29, 2012

thanks

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - th!nk - Feb. 29, 2012

(Feb. 29, 2012  7:52 PM)Hyper27 Wrote: Meteo L Drago, Ultimate Meteo L Drago, L Drago Destroy, and L Drago Guardian are the only left spin beys that "Spin Steal". This Happens due to the Rubber on the Energy Ring that equalizes the opposing beys spin and its spin, so it really should be called spin equalizing.

Not even remotely correct, all opposite spin beyblades equalise spin to some extent, it has nothing even remotely to do with rubber. There were no rubber contact parts in plastics.

It's an effect of being in opposite spin. Someone who isn't using a phone keyboard should hopefully give you a correct answer soon, nationsbeyblade, if not I will do so once I've slept.

PunkBlader: it'd just break again whenever you use it. Dranzer F's AR is notoriously fragile anyway. Glue it up then look but don't touch.


@hyper27/luck: don't answer questions unless you're 300 percent sure you have the correct answer.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Kenshin - Feb. 29, 2012

PunkBlader:I would like to say with my experience it would like to say it varies depending on the size of the crack. Because if it is a very small crack the super glue will not be able to fill in the crack very well and it would just leave a big mess. If you just use the bey for display with a small enough crack, you may be able to apply a good matching colored marker over the crack to save you some trouble. But if the crack is pretty big you might as well break it and super glue back together.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Kai-V - Feb. 29, 2012

Applying any foreign substance to your Beyblade parts automatically renders them completely illegal, if the crack was not enough to consider it broken and illegal already. Do not give advice on illegal modifications in this thread.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Kenshin - Feb. 29, 2012

Well in Punkblader's question he asked if he should apply superglue onto his parts and th!nk suggested that he should break the part and and superglue it. I was only suggesting another option for his problem but since that is illegal I never knew that i am sorry.

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - LeonTempest - Mar. 01, 2012

What factors determine which bey wins in a spin equalization battle? And how can you tell which bey initiated the spin equalization? Or is it a simultaneous process?

@th!nk: I willl be home soon, so hopefuly I can repeat those battles

RE: Ask a question, get an answer! #2 - Raigeko13 - Mar. 01, 2012

RPM, wherever contact happens, ect, really it's a simultaneous process, both are "equalizing", so they're both technically doing work.