(May. 02, 2021  9:19 PM)froztz Wrote:

(May. 02, 2021  8:36 PM)Shindog Wrote: I known several top ranked players do not play with pre-constructed combos at all in the first stage. They bring their part case to the stadium and they quickly make a decision, construct, and present to the judge to be set. It is just their habit.  I don’t usually play this way but I have in the past. Would this be allowed at your to tournament?  I do not do this to have an opportunity to gain an unfair advantage.  It is just that sometimes I just want to play something that just came to me.

My interpretation of the rules is exactly that, players should bring their parts and construct on the spot. Beyblade Selection rules for Burst:

"Once across from each other at the BeyStadium, each blader is to turn their backs and select their Beyblade in secret within 3 minutes.


If you are receiving help–in the form of advice or parts–from someone else, you must announce who is helping you to both the judge and your opponent. Parts borrowed at any point during the event for future use must be announced as well. The exact part(s) do not need to be announced, just the person they are being borrowed from.  During the match, players are not allowed to receive coaching or gameplay advice of any kind from the bystanders. 

Once a blader selects their Beyblade, they must announce that they are “set” and present their launcher and Beyblade to the judge for inspection.

Also:

"During Beyblade selection, bladers are forbidden from:

• getting up and/or leaving the BeyStadium
  
• turning around before both bladers are set
  
• attempting to spy on or gain information about the opposing blader’s selection
  
• attempting to switch their equipment after announcing they are set"
  

Now again most just bring a single beyblade i.e. I typically just bring Tempest up.

(May. 02, 2021  8:39 PM)StayCool Wrote:

(May. 02, 2021  8:19 PM)froztz Wrote: I'd argue rules as is, eliminates scouting. So its not the rules but how different organizers/players handle the beyblade selection process. Like I said previously, most players come up to the stadium with their beyblade already "set". To me it's as simple as either following the rules or telling new players to keep their selection hidden when coming up to the stadium.

It’s handled differently because of various players. Young, old, new and experienced. A 5 year old coming to play may not be as concerned with the discretion. But the older competitive player will and can take advantage of that. Spying is against the rules, organizing the match to where we have both players bring their Beys and multiple parts and produce a combo back to back will be tough. To be fully honest it’s just wild, we shouldn’t have to tell older players or experienced to not hard counter the younger kids or new players just because they don’t understand the concept of hiding their Bey or deck. I’ve seen it happen to my son and I’m just not cool with it. I wouldn’t do that to any kid or anyone no matter if there is a loophole in the rules. 

I understand it’s ok for some to find the advantage anyway they can, but I honestly feel if you don’t have the skill to beat your opponent straight up then that’s kinda sad. Especially if it’s teens/adults vs young kids just trying to play.

(May. 02, 2021  8:52 PM)Shindog Wrote: I think in the end, I just want formats where we don’t have to worry as much about what is legal and illegal scouting to be honest.   Less policing is nice imo.  I will run through finals with the same 3 beys sometimes without changing anything at all.  I am not that creative.  Frankly, I don’t care if ppl scout my deck.   I like to think it isn’t just the deck that does work, “I” am the part that is hard to scout... or not.

(May. 02, 2021  9:27 PM)Shindog Wrote:

(May. 02, 2021  9:19 PM)froztz Wrote: My interpretation of the rules is exactly that, players should bring their parts and construct on the spot. Beyblade Selection rules for Burst:

"Once across from each other at the BeyStadium, each blader is to turn their backs and select their Beyblade in secret within 3 minutes.


If you are receiving help–in the form of advice or parts–from someone else, you must announce who is helping you to both the judge and your opponent. Parts borrowed at any point during the event for future use must be announced as well. The exact part(s) do not need to be announced, just the person they are being borrowed from.  During the match, players are not allowed to receive coaching or gameplay advice of any kind from the bystanders. 

Once a blader selects their Beyblade, they must announce that they are “set” and present their launcher and Beyblade to the judge for inspection.

Also:

"During Beyblade selection, bladers are forbidden from:

• getting up and/or leaving the BeyStadium
  
• turning around before both bladers are set
  
• attempting to spy on or gain information about the opposing blader’s selection
  
• attempting to switch their equipment after announcing they are set"
  

Now again most just bring a single beyblade i.e. I typically just bring Tempest up.

I see I think I misinterpreted this:

“[font="Source Sans Pro", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]One way I've combated this is in the pre-tournament announcements for the first stage as you know I mention "When you are called up, only bring one beyblade. Do not bring extra beyblades in any pockets for any reason. If you come with more than one beyblade you will receive a warning. If you come up again with multiples you will be reported to OP." I have given out several warnings since I've started organizing but I'm sure some have gotten past me.”[/font]

[font="Source Sans Pro", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]What I mean is ppl bringing no beyblades and just parts. [/font]

(May. 02, 2021  9:47 PM)froztz Wrote:

(May. 02, 2021  9:27 PM)Shindog Wrote: I see I think I misinterpreted this:

“[font="Source Sans Pro", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]One way I've combated this is in the pre-tournament announcements for the first stage as you know I mention "When you are called up, only bring one beyblade. Do not bring extra beyblades in any pockets for any reason. If you come with more than one beyblade you will receive a warning. If you come up again with multiples you will be reported to OP." I have given out several warnings since I've started organizing but I'm sure some have gotten past me.”[/font]

[font="Source Sans Pro", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]What I mean is ppl bringing no beyblades and just parts. [/font]

Ah okay I see, Yes that is the announcement I make as most people come with fully assembled Beyblades. I do also announce that Player's have 3 minutes to select their combos in secret. There's actually a few players here who always take the 3 minutes to select their combos. The issue is when players come up to stadium with multiple full combos on them.
They watch the opponent walk up with their combo in hand and then select a pre-configured combo like say left world on drift or tempest on Xtend+ from their pocket depending on what opponent has. This can all be circumvented by either all players bringing parts up and building on the spot, players hiding their beyblade while walking up in the case they are already set on a combo, or the judge going over to each player in private and asking them what their combo is...

(May. 01, 2021  5:28 PM)StayCool Wrote: Hello WBO. I wanted to propose some thoughts and get some viewpoints on how players feel about the Single Bey Format versus other styles like Pick 3 Choose 1 or Full Deck Format for initial of a tournament, or even WBBA 3v3 format.
 
This topic came up at my last event and honestly has been something heavy on my mind. I enjoy battling, my whole family does, but there are major issues we run into with the Single Bey Format. 

For 1 its the "scouting" some players do to get an unfair advantage for a match. I get that we should definitely hide our combos before showing them to a judge or opponent, but it's tough sometimes and with young kids they aren't thinking of being super secretive with their Beys, they just want to play. Some players will scope out or roam to see their opponents combo and even if this is against the rules, it still happens and judges and/or organizers can't catch everything. Players bringing 2 beys in their pocket and then last second choosing is an issue too. Like I said, it's really hard on young kids who have no thoughts on discretion and get hard countered by others.
 
Second issue is the "major guessing game". If you're not scouting you are guessing, "what will my opponent use" and that can hurt skillful and tactical players if they guess wrong. This may not be that bad but I've witnessed great players just be SUPER unlucky. They play fair and straight up and just have a bad day with their choices. Strategy in Single Bey Format is heavily outweighed by chance, luck or scouting in my honest opinion.
 
I want to mention some of my thoughts on solutions also, instead of just outlining problems. These are some alternative thoughts and please let me know if you agree or think I'm just crazy. 
 
1. P3C1: I like this idea because it doesn’t stray too much from what the WBO is already doing. The difference is that it eliminates the unfair advantageous that some players get. True, you can still try to scout out your opponents three combos but it’s a lot less likely to know what they will choose or have a single Bey to counter 3 Beys. It’s a mind game and sometimes luck of the draw. It’s a lot more fair and less complicated for new players. It will also slowly introduce them to strategy.

2. WBO Deck for entire tournament phases: I love Deck format. Honestly I think this would be The Best method to employ. It teaches strategy. Helps to eliminate “some” unfair advantageous. The only downfall I see with this is time, but honestly the time it takes to get bladers ready with a single Bey can take forever as well. If you have a legit deck you can just GO AND PLAY! Overall though I’m onboard for full deck. The nerd dad side of me likes this as well because even though there is no perfect Beyblade I can make my custom deck and have it as my own. I think a lot of players would enjoy that, especially new ones.

3. WBBA 3v3: I think the WBBA format is efficient. When I started Four-Gaming tournaments that is exactly what we did for the finals stage. However we ran into issues with the freedom of strategy. It’s less strategy on countering if you just number your Beys blindly of your opponents. It can also be tough for newer players who won’t have 3 efficient combos. But it does work for fairness.

All in all I like solution 2 then 1 then 3. Agree or disagree, please share your thoughts and hopefully we can bring this up to staff to possibly get something changed or stay the same if that is what the community wants.

(May. 03, 2021  1:11 AM)BladerGem Wrote:

(May. 01, 2021  5:28 PM)StayCool Wrote: Hello WBO. I wanted to propose some thoughts and get some viewpoints on how players feel about the Single Bey Format versus other styles like Pick 3 Choose 1 or Full Deck Format for initial of a tournament, or even WBBA 3v3 format.
 
This topic came up at my last event and honestly has been something heavy on my mind. I enjoy battling, my whole family does, but there are major issues we run into with the Single Bey Format. 

For 1 its the "scouting" some players do to get an unfair advantage for a match. I get that we should definitely hide our combos before showing them to a judge or opponent, but it's tough sometimes and with young kids they aren't thinking of being super secretive with their Beys, they just want to play. Some players will scope out or roam to see their opponents combo and even if this is against the rules, it still happens and judges and/or organizers can't catch everything. Players bringing 2 beys in their pocket and then last second choosing is an issue too. Like I said, it's really hard on young kids who have no thoughts on discretion and get hard countered by others.
 
Second issue is the "major guessing game". If you're not scouting you are guessing, "what will my opponent use" and that can hurt skillful and tactical players if they guess wrong. This may not be that bad but I've witnessed great players just be SUPER unlucky. They play fair and straight up and just have a bad day with their choices. Strategy in Single Bey Format is heavily outweighed by chance, luck or scouting in my honest opinion.
 
I want to mention some of my thoughts on solutions also, instead of just outlining problems. These are some alternative thoughts and please let me know if you agree or think I'm just crazy. 
 
1. P3C1: I like this idea because it doesn’t stray too much from what the WBO is already doing. The difference is that it eliminates the unfair advantageous that some players get. True, you can still try to scout out your opponents three combos but it’s a lot less likely to know what they will choose or have a single Bey to counter 3 Beys. It’s a mind game and sometimes luck of the draw. It’s a lot more fair and less complicated for new players. It will also slowly introduce them to strategy.

2. WBO Deck for entire tournament phases: I love Deck format. Honestly I think this would be The Best method to employ. It teaches strategy. Helps to eliminate “some” unfair advantageous. The only downfall I see with this is time, but honestly the time it takes to get bladers ready with a single Bey can take forever as well. If you have a legit deck you can just GO AND PLAY! Overall though I’m onboard for full deck. The nerd dad side of me likes this as well because even though there is no perfect Beyblade I can make my custom deck and have it as my own. I think a lot of players would enjoy that, especially new ones.

3. WBBA 3v3: I think the WBBA format is efficient. When I started Four-Gaming tournaments that is exactly what we did for the finals stage. However we ran into issues with the freedom of strategy. It’s less strategy on countering if you just number your Beys blindly of your opponents. It can also be tough for newer players who won’t have 3 efficient combos. But it does work for fairness.

All in all I like solution 2 then 1 then 3. Agree or disagree, please share your thoughts and hopefully we can bring this up to staff to possibly get something changed or stay the same if that is what the community wants.

At the risk of going off-topic, may I ask what exactly is considered "scouting"?

At one of my most recent tournaments (before covid), I went around with a notebook and jotted down what combos players were using in their matches, so that if I was matched against them I'd have an idea of what they might use in our match. Granted, I'm not good with faces/names so I'd often forget who had what combo, but regardless. I'd like to get some clarification on this before tournaments start up again in my area, as I don't want to do it again if it's against the rules.

To clarify: Is it considered scouting/against the rules to make a record of what combos players are using in OTHER matches, then use that information to make a counter combo if/when you have a match against them? Not peeking at what combo they plan to use for your match specifically, but the combo that they've used in previous matches?

(May. 03, 2021  4:11 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: As far as scouting and spying during tournaments goes, it all boils down to personal integrity.
If you go out of your way to figure out what your opponent will bring to the match, and in response select a combo that you are mostly certain will defeat them, what does that say about you?
If you go out of your way to advertise that you will use a certain combo, and then you select a combo designed to defeat counters to the original combo you broadcast, what does that say about you?

If you know what your opponent is going to use, because they've been very open to that fact, try not to make your combo decision based on that. Develop a really questionable memory that prevents you from knowing. You won't be guaranteed to win, but you won't have done anything to feel guilty over. I find that as my memory deteriorates (kind of rapidly, actually) it makes me a very fair opponent for first round matches. Choose your bey based not on who your opponent is or what they say.

If your main reason for pursuing alternate first round systems is scouting and spying, you're trying to address a participant integrity problem with a complicated workaround. Focus on the actual problem.

There is no easy fix for an integrity problem. You just have to wait for them to grow up, which some younger bladers and even some adults will never do.

(May. 02, 2021  11:32 AM)Shindog Wrote: Although this isn’t done anymore, the WBBA use to employed the “2 or 3 draws and you move on to the next bey” tactic. This has gone away since the 5G format has been introduced (which officially does not allow the reshuffle), so the match has to conclude within the 5 beys (which means WBBA do have to keep playing out draws now I believe). Because 3v3 is a deck, you do have the choice of shifting both players into their next bey when the draws pile up. The ability to limit how many draws/ties we have to do is actually one of the things that I like the best about 3V3 deck.

(May. 02, 2021  3:26 PM)StayCool Wrote: With deck you have options. I want to revisit the 2 Bey deck format option too. That saves time in decision making. New players may not fully understand countering but they still have an option. So even if they don’t choose that initial great pick they can switch. Even if they still lose at least they have the choice and idea to see what’s wrong with their strategy. P3C1 leaves no choice. And it can lead to just being a modified Single Bey format.

(May. 03, 2021  3:06 AM)StayCool Wrote: BladerGem what you did with the notebook is completely cool in my honest opinion and certainly not illegal. It’s crazy to go into any competition without some knowledge of your opponent. Maybe I should not have said scouting but “spying” or something like that lol.

• P3C1: Maybe! Could work! Easier to inspect the one bey once it's selected.
  
• P3B1C1: Pick three, ban one, choose one. Bring 3 beys, tell the judge in secret which of your opponents 3 beys you would like to prohibit your opponent from using, learn which bey you're prohibited from using, and then choose in secret from one of the 2 beys still available to you. I think this one could really help newer bladers... although... if you eliminate an opponent's entire spin direction...
  
• 5G: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-New-WBBA-rules-5G-Battle-Format This has potential. Maybe. Stops all out routs. A little prohibitive for the newer bladers. Inspecting 5 beys sounds like a nightmare for judges.
  
• 5G Modified: 5G rules, but first to three instead of five, points worth how much they normally are in Burst Standard, and if there's ever a tie, just go on to the next combo pairing! This is my idea for how to thwart endless opposite spin ties. And if both bladers agree, the bladers can choose to use Pick One. This is a stopgap in case a very new blader with only one bey shows up. Also, no dual spin restrictions like 5G has, exception being they can't switch spin direction mid-match anyway because of existing rules.
  
• Deck Format: Takes too long considering how many bladers we have here in Maryland. 8 person deck format (so 8 matches, counting the third place match) takes an hour for finals usually, with 2 stadiums.
  

(Jun. 29, 2021  10:02 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: Nyo ho ho, it is me, the Thread Necromancer, committing posting sins! Please don't burn me at the stake, I do this only because I bring timely evidence from actual tournaments!

It's been a month since this thread was active, but I did just attend a burst standard tournament. And the tournament meta right now is... grim. There are... too many opposite spin matches that end in ties.  In Maryland, most people appear to have both Dynamite and Vanish, with Drift or other good drivers, so... things are a little... stagnant? Spin direction picking factors into winning and losing a bit much. We have to record matches in slo-mo just to see who wins visual ties, and even then they tie, a lot. It's... well, it's a little boring. Attack types don't seem to stand much chance anymore, we're getting back into the similar rut for standard we had halfway through ChoZ.

The problem is the beys, and that's not a problem we can fix! TT just keeps digging that hole deeper.

But the format? We can change the format.

I am considering running a Burst Standard tournament in August. And I want to run it unranked, with something other than the standard format. I've come up with a few ideas for the format to use after a brief discussion with other regional organizers. I would need to seek permission from staff to run any of these other than P3C1, but I think it'd be a worthwhile experiment.

Anyone who attends Maryland tournaments will have their opinions weighed a bit more heavily than those who don't.

• P3C1: Maybe! Could work! Easier to inspect the one bey once it's selected.
  
• P3B1C1: Pick three, ban one, choose one. Bring 3 beys, tell the judge in secret which of your opponents 3 beys you would like to prohibit your opponent from using, learn which bey you're prohibited from using, and then choose in secret from one of the 2 beys still available to you. I think this one could really help newer bladers... although... if you eliminate an opponent's entire spin direction...
  
• 5G: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-New-WBBA-rules-5G-Battle-Format This has potential. Maybe. Stops all out routs. A little prohibitive for the newer bladers. Inspecting 5 beys sounds like a nightmare for judges.
  
• 5G Modified: 5G rules, but first to three instead of five, points worth how much they normally are in Burst Standard, and if there's ever a tie, just go on to the next combo pairing! This is my idea for how to thwart endless opposite spin ties. And if both bladers agree, the bladers can choose to use Pick One. This is a stopgap in case a very new blader with only one bey shows up. Also, no dual spin restrictions like 5G has, exception being they can't switch spin direction mid-match anyway because of existing rules.
  
• Deck Format: Takes too long considering how many bladers we have here in Maryland. 8 person deck format (so 8 matches, counting the third place match) takes an hour for finals usually, with 2 stadiums.
  

So, Maryland bladers, and others, what do you think I should propose as the tournament format for the planned Burst Standard unranked tournament?

(Jun. 30, 2021  11:17 PM)UnseenBurst Wrote: May I ask what P3B1C1 is

(Jun. 30, 2021  11:13 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: There's one part of P3B1C1 that I have some concerns about, and that's a scenario where a blader is able to ban an opponent's entire spin direction.
Let's say Blader A has Rage Longinus, World Spriggan (In Right spin, wouldn't be allowed to change the spin direction after presenting the beys) and Tempest Solomon.
Let's say Blader B has Vanish Fafnir, World Spriggan (In Left spin, wouldn't be allowed to change the spin direction after presenting the beys) and Dynamite Belial.

Blader A could prevent Blader B from picking Vanish Or World Left, but not both. And in this situation, Blader B could prevent Blader A from picking Rage Longinus, leaving them with only two Right Spin beys. In this situation, Blader A is mostly doomed, depending.
A's best bet might be to block the Belial, and hope for an opposite spin win with World. B's best bet is to block Rage.
This leaves A to choose between World and Tempest, against two potential left spin beys Vanish and World. It would, undoubtedly, come down to World vs one of the other two, and we'd have to get out the slo-mo cameras anyway.
Maybe that's part of the strategy of it all, but that didn't solve the problem of avoiding boring opposite spin matchups. It just made things complicated.

I would have to simulate a few matchups between the other Maryland organizers to see what would get picked and when and determine if there's some problems with that format. It might just be safer to do P3C1. But I worry we'll still wind up with numerous opposite spin matches. Starting to think a modified 5G might be better.

(Jul. 01, 2021  12:01 AM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote: Also side suggestion, with your testing tournament maybe test out the new DB standard stadium and see if it has the potential to become the new standard stadium for tournaments?

(Jul. 01, 2021  12:58 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote:

(Jul. 01, 2021  12:01 AM)CrisisCrusher07 Wrote: Also side suggestion, with your testing tournament maybe test out the new DB standard stadium and see if it has the potential to become the new standard stadium for tournaments?

That's not how science works! You change one thing, and see what happens. You don't change two things!

Besides we don't have enough for a tournament, I don't have one.

(May. 01, 2021  7:56 PM)originalzankye Wrote: I love the pitches, I would agree with SuperDav I think having 2 in the opening round and 3 in the finals works out perfectly for that idea. (Should be fine time wise) 

I do really like the idea of the deck format but in the opening rounds, it makes players think more and also would make it interesting since many people usually pick one combo usually a safe combo having 2 would certainly make people think more.

It also allows players to have time and create and experiment with more combos, so I'm all for the deck idea.