(Jul. 29, 2012  4:22 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: I know vari is terrible at stamina/low rotations, but I would still suggest to try out a left spin vari rf combo vs something RS. You know, RS still has its quite marked S shape that makes it one of the worst bottoms at low rotations (especially when new)
So just make sure that vari won't start auto winning vs rs customs

Kei Wrote:It has no problems outspinning Flash, VariAres (left-spin is slightly harder, but VariAres has such crappy Stamina that it doesn't matter), Blitz, etc.

(Jul. 28, 2012  7:04 PM)Kei Wrote: I tested Hades:

Attack Stadium
Launcher Grip + BeyLauncher
Equally Worn WDs
Alternating Shots
Wheels switched every five battles

Phantom Cancer AD145WD vs. Phantom Hades AD145WD
Phantom Cancer AD145WD: 12 wins
Phantom Hades AD145WD: 8 wins
Hades win percentage: 40%

Based on the results alone, it's clear that Hades did put up a fight ... but I'm still hesitant to say whether or not it is equal to Cancer. Who knows how much of a factor the Phantom Wheels played. We need more people to test it.

(Jul. 28, 2012  7:04 PM)Kei Wrote: Also, I tested Saramanda Saramanda a bit, and while it seems to be usable defensively, I'm not a fan of how big a gap it leaves between itself and BD145 when they're used together.

(Jul. 28, 2012  7:51 PM)th!nk Wrote: Just for reference as I think I've only seen it in the lower mode, how big a gap does E230 leave between itself and Duo etc? is it bigger than the Saramanda/BD145 Gap?

(Aug. 05, 2012  5:05 AM)Ingulit Wrote: I personally want to see quite a few things regarding Zero-G before we start on a tier list:
1) I'd like to see some more structure in this forum for Zero-G discussion to facilitate those (relatively few) people doing any testing for the stadium;

(Aug. 05, 2012  5:05 AM)Ingulit Wrote: 2) We need an actual ruleset and testing standard (especially which stadium is considered the official standard);

(Aug. 05, 2012  5:05 AM)Ingulit Wrote: 3) Once we have a ruleset, I want to see some actual tournament results to see what is competitive and placing in real life.

(Aug. 05, 2012  5:05 AM)Ingulit Wrote: Zero-G is still far too young structurally to worry about a tier list IMO.

(Aug. 05, 2012  5:05 AM)Ingulit Wrote: Also, we should make a separate thread in here for Zero-G tier lists so that neither discussion is confused with the other (since, again, we'd be talking about the same parts).

(Aug. 05, 2012  7:24 AM)th!nk Wrote: But yes, when we do get to it, it'll need its own thread.

(Aug. 05, 2012  8:04 PM)Ingulit Wrote: One thing that needs to be remembered is that it is every players' job, NOT just the advanced members, to test parts and develop a metagame, and that the tier list we create should merely reflect what the community is seeing, not the other way around. This discussion is making it sound like you're arguing a meta can't exist without someone telling players what the meta is (with a tier list), and that leaves a horrible taste in my mouth.

(Aug. 05, 2012  6:33 PM)Uwik Wrote: We are the WBO. As a community,.........

Quote:

---

ATTACK

Flash

• Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Horogium
  
• MF(-H) Flash ____ (105/CH120/D125/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  
• MF(-H) Flash ____ W145 MF

VariAres

• MF(-H) VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Blitz

• Clear Wheels: Unicorno II, Kerbecs
  
• MF(-H) Blitz ____ (100/CH120) (RF/R2F)

---

DEFENSE

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer, Cygnus
  
• MF-H Duo ____ (BD145/E230) (CS/RB/RDF/RS/RSF)

Reviser Reviser

• MSF-H Revizer Revizer (BD145/E230) (CS/RB/RDF/RS/RSF)

---

STAMINA

Phantom

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Cygnus, Hades
  
• Phantom ____ 85 (EDS/EWD/WD)
  
• Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/SWD/WD)
  
• Phantom ____ BD145 EDS
  
• Phantom ____ (TH170/230) D/SD

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Cygnus
  
• Duo ____ W145 EWD/SWD/WD
  
• Duo ____ BD145 EDS
  
• Duo ____ 160 PD
  
• Duo ____ TH170/230 D/SD

---

BALANCE

• MF(-H, -M) Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus) 230 MB
  
• MF(-H) L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  
• MF(-H) Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) BD145 RF/R2F
  

(Aug. 27, 2012  3:19 AM)Kai-V Wrote: I think that looks way too complicated. 230D can get a separate line, but otherwise I believe we could really just do it like this, for instance :

Phantom Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 85EDS/EWD/WD, W145EWD/SWD/WD, BD145EDS, or TH170/230D/SD

(Dec. 16, 2010  3:55 AM)Kei Wrote: ATTACK

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Flash Escolpio/Orion/Pisces 105/CH120/125/130/W145/GB145/H145 RF/R2F/MF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Kerbecs BD145/E230 RB/RDF/RF/RS/RSF
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Death Aquario/Bull/Kerbecs BD145/E230 RB/RDF/RF/RS/RSF
  
• Metal Stone Face-Heavy Revizer Revizer BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS/RSF
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Cancer/Cygnus 85/W145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD/PD
  
• Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 85/W145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD/PD
  
• Meteo L Drago CH120/TR145 EWD
  
• Metal Stone Face/Metal Stone Face-Heavy Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 230MB
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 RF/R2F
  

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: Killerken Killerken would deserve a place based on zionson's tests of it, but those are the only legitimate tests I' could find of it.

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: Duo's position on the defense list is a little shaky, given things we haven't listed (due to being outclassed by revizer) still get better results vs attack, it's now more of a balance wheel. If we ever get an attack wheel which outperforms flash, Duo is definitely gone.

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: For stamina, unless low track duo combos really offer no advantage while low track phantom combos do, we need to list something there.

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: I would have agreed on Spin-Stealers getting a spot before Dragooon came along, now I think that'll probably supplant them.

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: Does SA165 work for standard stamina? I'm aware of the compatibility issues it has but yeah.

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: I don't think we can add 160PD yet without more testing, at least of 160 itself. It's really annoying how we cannot get multiple users to test things these days, but yeah... If, as you said, D did about the same as PD, it should be listed as a more affordable alternative IMO.

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: I am still not convinced AD145 doesn't make the cut for being competitive, it's still doing well in tournaments. W145 may do much better but that doesn't mean AD145 doesn't deserve a spot.

(Sep. 23, 2012  2:44 PM)th!nk Wrote: Honestly, we really need to provide a Competitive Combinations List Discussion Thread that is open to the rest of the forum, at least that way this stuff could get some discussion.

(Sep. 23, 2012  10:01 PM)Kei Wrote: Added:
- Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 RF/R2F moved from Attack to Balance.
- Meteo L Drago CH120/TR145 EWD and Metal Stone Face/Metal Stone Face-Heavy Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD to Stamina.
- PD to Duo/Phantom customs.
- RSF to Defense customs.

Quote:Subtracted:
- AD145 from Flash, based on Ingulit's recommendation.
- CS from Defense customs, except for Revizer Revizer.
- Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Blitz Unicorno II 100/CH120 RF/R2F from Attack.
- Aquario from Phantom. Duo too?

Quote:Considered:
- Saramanda Saramanda/Revizer Saramanda for Defense. Still not sure on this one ...

Quote:

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: Killerken Killerken would deserve a place based on zionson's tests of it, but those are the only legitimate tests I could find of it.

I'll try to do some tests on it myself soon. I can't imagine it being better than Revizer, though.

Quote:

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: Duo's position on the defense list is a little shaky, given things we haven't listed (due to being outclassed by revizer) still get better results vs attack, it's now more of a balance wheel. If we ever get an attack wheel which outperforms flash, Duo is definitely gone.

I agree. I've never felt Duo was that great as a pure defensive Wheel, to be honest.

Quote:

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: For stamina, unless low track duo combos really offer no advantage while low track phantom combos do, we need to list something there.

What do you suggest?

Quote:

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: Does SA165 work for standard stamina? I'm aware of the compatibility issues it has but yeah.

I don't have one myself yet (will in a few days), but I've also been wondering; might it be viable for Defense?

Quote:

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: I don't think we can add 160PD yet without more testing, at least of 160 itself. It's really annoying how we cannot get multiple users to test things these days, but yeah... If, as you said, D did about the same as PD, it should be listed as a more affordable alternative IMO.

I can test this, if you want! And anything else, for that matter. Once I get my huge lot of new stuff in this week, I'll be doing a lot of testing.

Quote:

(Sep. 01, 2012  6:57 PM)th!nk Wrote: I am still not convinced AD145 doesn't make the cut for being competitive, it's still doing well in tournaments. W145 may do much better but that doesn't mean AD145 doesn't deserve a spot.

I do see where you're coming from, especially considering how we handled the removal/addition of Stamina Tracks in the past, but is it really worth it given the huge discrepancy between the two?

Quote:

ATTACK

Flash

• Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Horogium
  
• MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145 MF

VariAres

• MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

---

DEFENSE

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Saggitario II, Hades
  
• MF-H Duo ____ BD145 (RB/RDF)
  
• MF-H Duo ____ E230 (RB/RS/RSF)

Reviser

• MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145 (RB/RDF/RS)
  
• MSF-H Reviser Reviser E230 (CS/RB/RS/RSF)

---

ANTI-ATTACK

Diablo

• Clear Wheels: Kerbecs, Unicorno II
  
• MF-H Diablo ____ BD145 (RF/R2F)

Basalt

• MF-H Basalt Horogium (R145/TR145) (RF/R2F)

---

STAMINA

Phantom

• Clear Wheels: Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
  
• Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  
• Phantom ____ TH170 (D/SD)

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus
  
• Duo ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  
• Duo ____ TH170 (D/SD)

---

SPIN STEALERS

Dragooon

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD

Meteo L-Drago

• (MF-H) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
  
• MF-H Meteo L-Drago TR145 EWD

---

BALANCE

• (MF-H/MF-M) Duo Cygnus 230 MB
  
• MF-H L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  

• Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Horogium
  
• MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145 MF

• Added Horogium to clear wheels based on past discussion; we need to finalize the best clear wheels for Flash since there are so many good options.
  
• Removed 105 and 125 simply due to the fact that nobody uses them, and because the other tracks have put up much better results. Obviously this move is up for debate, but seeing as this list is supposed to show both the best of the best and what are the most prominent tournament threats, I feel they should be removed. I am also trying to make the list more concise where I can manage it since I'm adding so much other stuff.
  
• Changed 130 to S130 because S130 is strictly better than its other 130-height brethren on Flash and this is a top-tier list.
  
• Made the W145MF combo very specific since it is more picky about its pieces (namely clear wheels) than RF-based Flash variants. This is also done to specify W145 is the most effective when used with MF on Flash and vice-versa, such that W145RF or H145MF aren't really that good.
  
• Removed regular Metal Faces in favor of MF-H. Beyblades of all types are getting heavier, and attackers need all the weight they can get to compensate.

• MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

• Removed regular Metal Faces in favor of MF-H. Beyblades of all types are getting heavier, and attackers need all the weight they can get anymore to compensate.

• While I didn't change anything other than the Face Bolts on VariAres, the sole fact that it's still even on the list is actually something to take note of. Let's face it, both Blitz and VariAres pale in comparison to the recoilless monster that is Flash, so much so that despite how much I love Blitz, I don't have it on this list anymore. The only reason VariAres is still here is because it spins left, and that's a tenuous reason for it to stay at best. I think if we get a decent Zero-G attack wheel VariAres will have to get retired.

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Saggitario II, Hades
  
• MF-H Duo ____ BD145 (RB/RDF)
  
• MF-H Duo ____ E230 (RB/RS/RSF)

• This entry in the tier list has been changed a lot, and as such I expect a lot of questions about it. Hopefully I can clear most of them up here.
  
• I updated and expanded the clear wheel section a ton. There have been many, many heavy and well-balanced clear wheels that have been released that work wonders for defense that haven't been added for seemingly no reason other than the list not being updated frequently. Hades and Saggitario II both hit the 3.3g mark, and I feel Gasher should be mentioned seperately from Cancer since they are different. I did not include Kerbecs or Nemesis because while they are certainly heavy, their weight distribution does not play well with Duo. I'm sure I'm missing a few, so please tell me if I left something out or of one of the ones I listed doesn't actually work well with Duo.
  
• To be honest, Duo's place on the defense list is shaky with Synchroms existing, but I do think Duo still CURRENTLY deserves a spot due to its amazing stamina. While I love me my Death wheel, I did remove Death since it doesn't have the weight of Synchroms or the survivability of Duo, and thus can't really be considered top-tier anymore. If we get a Synchrom wheel that has even passable stamina, I can very much see Duo getting taken off the defense list.
  
• Now for the fun part, the track/tip combinations. I removed a large portion of the tips for each track as I feel if you're using a wheel as light as Duo you NEED to have the right track/tip combo to perform well defensively. I removed CS entirely because it doesn't have enough raw defense to stand up to Flash. For BD145 I removed RS and RSF as well as they don't have enough balance to perform as well as RB or RDF without scraping, as if you're using Duo over Synchroms for defense you should be maximizing the custom's stamina as much as possible. For E230 I removed RDF as in my own experience I've found it doesn't perform as well on tall tracks (when it starts to wobble RDF will scrape), but if I am mistaken please correct me.

• MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145 (RB/RDF/RS)
  
• MSF-H Reviser Reviser E230 (CS/RB/RS/RSF)

• All you have to do is put two Revisers together with a MSF-H you've already got a good defensive bey. If you think this shouldn't be on the list, you're wrong.
  
• The track/tip setups are different from Duo since Reviser Reviser has such amazing defense already. If you want to maximize your defense, put RS on BD145 and you'll almost never end up outside the arena at the price of your stamina. Opposite of that, I kept CS on for E230 because Synchrom + E230 is already an amazing defensive setup against Flash to the point where the slight defense loss from using CS over a pure rubber tip isn't that noticeable compared to the stamina you get back. Note that I did not keep CS on for BD145; I do think that E230 is an overall better track for defense against Flash, such that I don't feel BD145CS is nearly as good as RB, RDF, or RS.

• I did keep RSF on this list, though since both RS and RB exist I can see an argument being made against it. RS is basically the king of pure defense, while RB has probably the best stamina a pure rubber tip can have. RSF lies in between, and I feel it is a very competitive middleground indeed. Basically, if you want your RS custom to have more stamina, you can either go the RB route for the best stability and stamina from a defense tip or RSF for more stability and no fear of slipping over the Tornado Ridge (RB's main downfall).
  
• I am heavily considering just adding a "Synchrom" section since any given Synchrom has the weight to be effective at defense (even Orojya Orojya and Pheonic Pheonic). It's not as effective as Reviser Reviser, but any Synchrom is arguably better at pure defense than even Duo.
  
• I do not have Rubber Flat on any of these customs, and the reason for that will be made clear by the existance of the next section.
  
• I did not add SA165, though if testing follows my hunch I imagine it becoming the third top defense track very soon. I'd love to see a triangle of defense power between BD145, E230, and SA165 since they all offer such different benefits, though there hasn't been nearly enough testing with SA165 for it to have a place on here yet.

• Clear Wheels: Kerbecs, Unicorno II
  
• MF-H Diablo ____ BD145 (RF/R2F)

• MF-H Basalt Horogium (R145/TR145) (RF/R2F)

• The most obvious change to this section is that it exists! I do believe that Anti-Attack deserves its own spot, and as such I'm adding it to my list.
  
• I moved Diablo from the Balance section to here since, well, it's anti-attack.
  
• Basalt makes its return in my list as I've had great success with both of the listed customs and they are both showing great promise with test results. This is certainly a questionable change, but I think if you are going to talk about anti-attack at all I feel it deserves a spot.

• Clear Wheels: Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
  
• Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  
• Phantom ____ TH170 (D/SD)

• Hokay, I removed a TON of stuff, so hear me out. That said, I'm not about to say I'm right about everything, so question anything I say! I do want to eventually make this list into a true top-tier list by removing all but the absolute best parts, but if you think I removed anything for the wrong reason, say so!
  
• Before I get into the stuff I removed, I need to point out that I added Hades to the clear wheels. I've said it before and I'll say it agian, I do think Hades is bar none the best clear wheel for stamina Phantom customs, and I'll do any tests I need to to prove it. I also added Gasher since it is different from Cancer and they both work well. I removed Aquario per everyone's suggestion.
  
• Okay, onto what I removed. Some of it is simple like 85; honestly I removed it simply because absolutely nobody uses it anymore. As much as I love low-track customs, they've really fallen out of favor lately.
  
• Though this is an old-ish update, I replaced AD145 with W145 just because W145 is strictly better. Again, I'm trying to get rid of all but the best, so while AD145 is good, it's just not good enough.
  
• I removed SWD from the W145 list. I did a lot of research into SWD and it seems like it was added to the list without much actual testing; as such, I don't want it to be on there until it's been tested some more by more people. From my own experience it's not nearly as good as WD.
  
• I kept EWD on the list even though in my experience I've noticed it's not as good for pure stamina types as WD. I would have removed it if it wasn't for the fact that EWD seems to do better against spin-stealers, a matchup that is becoming ever more relevant thanks to Dragooon.
  
• I removed BD145EDS and I expect a lot of flak about it, but it's for the same reason I kept EWD: simply put, using anything on BD145 that isn't RDF agianst something that spins left is the same as handing your opponent a free win. Not only that, but from all my personal testing BD145EDS just doesn't have nearly the amount of stamina that W145 and TH170 offer. I understand that there is a lot of appeal to having a really heavy stamina type, but when it auto-loses to the ever-growing threat of left-spin I can't justify listing it as being as good as the other two tracks on this list.
  
• Like I said before, my current goal with this list is to only list the absolute best of the best. Along those lines, I removed 230 in favor of TH170 since TH170 is infinitely more versatile. If you're looking for a tall stamina type, you should ideally be using TH170 over 230; I know 230 is much easier to come by, but that's a topic for Build Me A Combo, not the top-tier list.
  
• I considered PD for TH170, though I have had better experience with TH170D and TH170SD on Phantom since PD doesn't handle recoil as well.
  
• The topic of whether Phantom or Duo is the better stamina wheel comes up a lot, and a very compelling case can be made for Duo since it has so much less recoil than Phantom. Still, Phantom is an absolute powerhouse for stamina, so much so that I still consider it a very competitive wheel despite its recoil.

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus
  
• Duo ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  
• Duo ____ TH170 (D/SD)

• I covered basically all the changes for the track/tip choices in the Phantom section.
  
• I added Gasher since it is technically different from Cancer and both work well. I also considered removing Aquario, but I couldn't find as concrete a reason for its removal on Duo as I could on Phantom.
  
• I really, REALLY want to add 160PD to this list. Like, a lot. It's bar none my favorite Duo stamina custom, though I can understand not wanting to add it since I'm basically the only one who has tested it.

• Yet again I have to mention SA165. It seems like it could be very good for stamina, but there simply isn't enough testing with it for it to be added any time soon.

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD

• This custom has seen a ton of tournament play, and from all the testing that I and other people have done it's for a very good reason. To say that this custom is currently a tournament threat is putting things lightly.
  
• Dragooon is an absolutely amazing and incredibly versatile wheel. There has been a ton of testing with many Dragooon variants that have all shown great promise, so I can see this section of the top-tier list being expanded very soon. Currently the SA165 variant is the only one here since it's seeing so much tournament play already.

• (MF-H) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
  
• MF-H Meteo L-Drago TR145 EWD

• I'm not going to lie, I was very hesitant to add Meteo to this list since it is so anemic weight-wise, but these two customs have helped a lot of people win tournaments and as such I feel deserve a spot. If we get more Dragooon combos, though, I think this might get knocked off since Dragooon should in theory be safer to use thanks to its weight.
  
• I was really unsure whether or not to list a MF-H on the Meteo L-Drago CH120EWD custom. The thread for it has it without one, but a lot of the time you see the custom being used with a Metal Face. I wound up putting it in parenthasis to try to show it is optional, though I'd prefer to have a more definite answer on the matter.
  
• W2D. From my own experience I've found Meteo to actually work better with W2D than EWD for whatever reason, but there isn't nearly enough testing for it to be added to the list. I think it deserves looking into.

• Like the Anti-Attack section, the biggest change is that this section now exists. In the same way that I feel that Anti-Attack customs are different enough to be listed seperate from regular defense customs, I feel that listing spin-stealers under stamina is cutting them short.
  
• Like I mentioned in its section, I'm very hesitant to have Meteo on the list since it is so laughably light, but tournament results are hard to argue with.

• (MF-H/MF-M) Duo Cygnus 230 MB
  
• MF-H L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  

• I added MF-M to Duo ___ 230MB per the update to Uwik's thread. I also removed all the clear wheels except Cygnus both since Uwik specified in the thread that it's the best option and because I've found it to be the best clear wheel for Duo in my own experiences. I did keep MF-H on the list since the MF-H variant has won so many tournaments and is very much a huge tournament threat.
  
• I would LOVE to see someone decide finally which is better, L-Drago Destroy or L-Drago Guardian. I want to favor Guardian for its weight alone, but I don't have both to do official testing. Until that is finalized I'm keeping both on the list, though I'd love to see that changed sometime soon.
  
• I considered moving the L-Drago custom to the spin stealer section but this is very much a spin-steal/defense hybrid, thus landing it in Balance. This is actually the reason I'm favoring Guardian over Destroy since in theory Guardian's extra weight should give it more defense, but Destroy is the wheel you see listed in the Winning Customs thread most often.
  
• I heavily, HEAVILY considered adding Metal Flat to the list of tips for the L-Drago custom seeing as I've seen that custom do great things, but there isn't enough formal testing on these forums for that to happen. If anyone else wants it added, they should post some test results!

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: A note on RF Defense: Duo BD145RF performed significantly better against flash than Diablo BD145RF, because it had better stamina and was basically immune to KO thanks to its low recoil, unlike Diablo which is easier to KO. I know I was a big proponent of Diablo for it but Dan was right to say that Duo was better with RF in terms of pure defense - it lacks the attacking ability that Anti-Attackers have (which is the main reason for the distinction from defense), instead just being a defense type that happens to move (and I hope I don't need to explain how the "defense is immobile" thing is just plain wrong another time...)

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: I think Kei has made his mind up on the number of categories for the time being (Four: Attack, Defense, Stamina, Balance), too.

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: MF could be added to the Ldrago customs but apparently RDF outperforms it. Guardian/Destroy is somewhat of a matter of opinion and the two are very closely matched even with the weight difference, so I doubt we'll get anywhere with that.

Kei Wrote:Anyways, yes, that's what I'm saying. For that combo specifically, it doesn't. MF can KO Stamina customs well, but so can the RDF version with the added bonus of vastly improved defense, and increased precession time. Additionally, the increased overall Stamina of MF is basically negated due to BD145's tendency to scrape, and it makes little sense to Tornado Stall with an L Drago combo, since you'll just end up spin stealing/equalizing once you reach the centre.

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: As hesitant as I am to bring it up again, Gravity BD145RDF is getting more testing and doing really well, and is the most viable dual spin combo out (which seems to work well for it against Dragooon, though I haven't given everything a thorough read yet).

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: SA165 has that issue with not fitting well on most pre-Zero G wheels which is kinda annoying. More testing is probably needed for it still, hopefully Kei can do some of that.

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: Cancer should still be listed on the Duo 230 MB combo as an alternative. The difference between it and cygnus, at least from what I've seen (as I don't own cygnus) is small, and Cancer works very well for me (though I do have that thing with my Phantom just laughing at my Duo no matter what for some reason).

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: I disagree with most of your edits to stamina- BD145EDS is a solid, versatile setup, even with the whole RDF thing, it's generally a decent option against Metal Flat, which isn't uncommon, and still has very good stamina as it doesn't really scrape and BD145 has a great weight distribution. It's generally a lot "safer" than other stamina setups, basically a tradeoff of a little pure stamina for a good amount of peace of mind.

(Sep. 30, 2012  3:04 PM)th!nk Wrote: Surprised that Dragooon+RDF isn't more popular at the moment, but eh.

(Sep. 30, 2012  11:11 PM)Kei Wrote: I agree. Duo (or something like Reviser Reviser) lacking the attacking ability is the deal-breaker for me, though. Diablo is much more versatile.

Quote:

Quote:As hesitant as I am to bring it up again, Gravity BD145RDF is getting more testing and doing really well, and is the most viable dual spin combo out (which seems to work well for it against Dragooon, though I haven't given everything a thorough read yet).

I think L Drago Destoy/Guardian BD145RDF is more useful overall for it's better defensive prowess (and just weight in general, which always a good thing), but that might just be because Attack types are relatively common here in Toronto.

Quote:Done. Check the Customizations forum. The only issue I had was attaching Bottoms when the rest of the Beyblade had already been assembled. I had to disassemble it, attach the Bottom, then reassemble it each time.

Quote:I've always hated BD145EDS because EDS tends to go crazy and self-KO itself seemingly at random whenever I've seen Pockyx3 use it at our tournaments lol. But in all seriousnesss (well, that concern is kind of serious), do we have any recent tests of BD145EDS vs. W145WD, or any other prominent Stamina set ups? Does it auto-lose to things like W145WD? Because I mean, I get that it gives you a "good amount of peace of mind", but of what value is that? If you're not sure if you're opponent will use a Stamina type or an Attack type, why would you choose this? If you pick it, you may have a slightly better chance of beating the Attack type, but you also will probably lose if they choose a pure Stamina type ... personally, I'd rather go all out and choose either a pure Stamina type to combat theirs, or use a Defense type to combat the possibility of an Attack type.

Quote:Me too. I've been wondering if some sort of Dragooon + RDF variant would surpass L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF.