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+---- Thread: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion (/Thread-MFB-Limited-Competitive-Customs-List-and-Public-Discussion)
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - 6 God - Feb. 04, 2015
You were a little rude, but so was Tri. And Meteo and Flash are two different things, therefore could result in different results.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Feb. 04, 2015
Nice results, Echizen; although, Phoenic is generally supposed to be testing on a right-spin setup, so I'm not sure how valuable the DK results are.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - blitzstrikerrsf - Feb. 24, 2015
screw capricorne 90 mf
against a random defense combo
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - phoenixking13 - Mar. 11, 2015
Hell Aries bd145 bs
Hell Aries bd145 bs any beyblade
Hell Aries bd145 bs against any beyblade
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Kai-V - Mar. 11, 2015
(Feb. 24, 2015 4:06 AM)blitzstrikerrsf Wrote: screw capricorne 90 mf
against a random defense combo
(Mar. 11, 2015 3:16 PM)phoenixking13 Wrote: Hell Aries bd145 bs
Hell Aries bd145 bs any beyblade
Hell Aries bd145 bs against any beyblade
Guys, this is not a testing request topic. This thread is for discussing what Beyblade combinations should be added or removed from the top-tier list of the Limited format. None of the two Beyblades you two mentioned would qualify, and Hell is even banned in that format. You should really read around before posting.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Wombat - Mar. 15, 2015
I did some testing on the idea of using Wyvang in a Dark Knight LTAC from this post almost two months ago that didn't seem to get a response, and I think it could be considered as a replacement for Zirago or Gryph.
MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Zirago: 13 wins (12 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 7 wins (3 KO, 4 OS)
3 ties redone
Zirago win rate: 65%
MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Wyvang: 12 wins (11 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 8 wins (2 KO, 6 OS)
2 ties redone
Wyvang win rate: 60%
What does everyone else think?
EDIT: Oh yeah I almost forgot. In that post I linked is a link to Honey's thread about Limited Defense. Do you all think Bakushin should be removed, given how poorly it did in comparison to the other top-tier Defense Wheels?
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Leone19 - Mar. 15, 2015
(Mar. 15, 2015 4:27 PM)Wombat Wrote: I did some testing on the idea of using Wyvang in a Dark Knight LTAC from this post almost two months ago that didn't seem to get a response, and I think it could be considered as a replacement for Zirago or Gryph.
MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Zirago: 13 wins (12 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 7 wins (3 KO, 4 OS)
3 ties redone
Zirago win rate: 65%
MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Wyvang: 12 wins (11 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 8 wins (2 KO, 6 OS)
2 ties redone
Wyvang win rate: 60%
What does everyone else think?
EDIT: Oh yeah I almost forgot. In that post I linked is a link to Honey's thread about Limited Defense. Do you all think Bakushin should be removed, given how poorly it did in comparison to the other top-tier Defense Wheels?
Neat find, I'll definitely try to do some comparison tests myself. So far, for that setup, it seems like Zirago>Gryph/Wyvang, just by a bit.
I have mixed feelings with Bakushin. I've used it before and it's done alright, maybe not something that's superb, though. It may depend on the user, but I'm mixed/indifferent either way.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Mitsu - Mar. 15, 2015
Wombat Wrote:I did some testing on the idea of using Wyvang in a Dark Knight LTAC from this post almost two months ago that didn't seem to get a response, and I think it could be considered as a replacement for Zirago or Gryph.
MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Zirago: 13 wins (12 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 7 wins (3 KO, 4 OS)
3 ties redone
Zirago win rate: 65%
MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Wyvang: 12 wins (11 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 8 wins (2 KO, 6 OS)
2 ties redone
Wyvang win rate: 60%
What does everyone else think?
Out of curiosity, did Wyvang seem to have any recoil issues. That was the case when I tested it a little while ago. But yeah, pretty decent results. Here are the ones I did back in January.
MSF-H Ronin Wyvang 100RF versus Earth Cancer B:D
Bottoms in their Prime. Earth Cancer Launched First all Matches.
Ronin Wyvang: 15/20 (ALL KO) 75% Win Rate
Earth Cancer: 5/20 (4 OS, 1 KO) 25% Win Rate
MSF-H Ronin Wyvang 100RF versus Libra 90RSF
Bottoms in their Prime. Libra Launched First all Matches.
Ronin Wyvang: 11/20 (ALL KO) 55% Win Rate
Libra: 9/20 (3 OS, 6 KOs) 45% Win Rate
It had some serious recoil issues against LTDC. Had of that not been the case, the results would have been much better, seeing as six of Libra's wins were by KO caused by Wyvang's recoil.
Leone19 Wrote:I have mixed feelings with Bakushin. I've used it before and it's done alright, maybe not something that's superb, though. It may depend on the user, but I'm mixed/indifferent either way.
Ditto. While like I said in the comparison testing thread, it's still passable as an LTDC, it, however, doesn't have the upper hand over Libra or Earth, only an alternative in my opinion. Let me also mention that TheBlackDragon even mentioned that LTACs aren't Bakushin LTDCs strong point, whereas LTDCs shouldn't have an issue doing well against them -- against all areas of attack.
So I'm also somewhere in between.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Wombat - Mar. 15, 2015
(Mar. 15, 2015 5:24 PM)Honey Wrote: Out of curiosity, did Wyvang seem to have any recoil issues. That was the case when I tested it a little while ago. But yeah, pretty decent results. Here are the ones I did back in January.
...
It had some serious recoil issues against LTDC. Had of that not been the case, the results would have been much better, seeing as six of Libra's wins were by KO caused by Wyvang's recoil.
It definitely had more recoil than Zirago, but it also hit considerably harder (It's Wyvang, what do you expect). In fact, both of the ties with Wyvang were double KOs while the ties with Zirago were double OS. The case might be that Zirago is better for late-game destabilization if you don't get the early KO while Wyvang is more for immediate Attack power. I'll test against LTDC today.
(Mar. 15, 2015 5:24 PM)Honey Wrote:Leone19 Wrote:I have mixed feelings with Bakushin. I've used it before and it's done alright, maybe not something that's superb, though. It may depend on the user, but I'm mixed/indifferent either way.
Ditto. While like I said in the comparison testing thread, it's still passable as an LTDC, it, however, doesn't have the upper hand over Libra or Earth, only an alternative in my opinion. Let me also mention that TheBlackDragon even mentioned that LTACs aren't Bakushin LTDCs strong point, whereas LTDCs shouldn't have an issue doing well against them -- against all areas of attack.
So I'm also somewhere in between.
I personally think it has the upper hand over Earth in an LTDC due to its shape (Libra not so much since Libra is significantly heavier), but I use Bakushin LTDC a lot and I have noticed it is particularly weak to LTAC (specifically Dark Knight). Against CH120 and higher it's really tough to move even using Omega. While MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF is hands down my favorite Limited combo and I like the way it plays, I thought its removal was worth bringing up.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Leone19 - Mar. 15, 2015
Definitely looking forward to the LTDC tests. Should be interesting.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Wombat - Mar. 15, 2015
(Mar. 15, 2015 8:39 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Definitely looking forward to the LTDC tests. Should be interesting.Alright here they are.
Zirago (Click to View)
Wyvang (Click to View)
So:
- Libra < Zirago
- Bakushin = Zirago / Earth = Wyvang
- Earth > Zirago
- Bakushin > Wyvang
- Libra > Wyvang
EDIT: And I'm still waiting for TheBlackDragon to appear, explain why I'm wrong, and invalidate my tests in a few short paragraphs.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Mitsu - Mar. 15, 2015
Interesting results; I've experienced Dark Knight Zirago being able to get some OS against defense.
Overall, we clearly see that while Wyvang seems to get a lot of KOs, we also see that Zirago is capable of the alternative, again, OS. I'm not too sure what to say about one being better than another, though. In my opinion, seeing as all of the results are rather close, it probably could have went the other way around.
Thanks for the tests Wombat.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Leone19 - Mar. 16, 2015
Yeah, they seem to be relatively close results. Whether it's OS or KO, it's getting the job done, either way.
Really interesting results- good job, Wombat.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Mitsu - Apr. 23, 2015
Just a random thought: are MTDCs and HTDCs really fit for the tier-list?
I feel as they're KO'ed a lot more frequently than LTDCs - which are arguably, in my opinion, the safest option when it comes to Limited Format defense. The really on right-spin wheel that is successful against it is Omega, though on the other hand, there's left-spin, which can be capable of easier KO's, if not, destabilization. There was also two clips for the Grand Battle Tournament 2 BeyChannel video where LMAO's Libra GB145RSF combo lost against Geetster99's
L-Drago LTAC and an Omega one Fang Wolf was using.
And in Toronto, I should mention that when it comes to defense Kei (and I for the most part) go for an LTDC - again, arguably the safest option for defense. Being the worrisome person I am, in tournaments, I'd rather not risk any chances of being KO'ed.
Just my perspective, though.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Wombat - Apr. 23, 2015
(Apr. 23, 2015 10:10 PM)Honey Wrote: Just a random thought: are MTDCs and LTDCs really fit for the tier-list?Was this a typo? Did you mean HTDCs?
I feel as they're KO'ed a lot more frequently than LTDCs
I kind of agree for MTDC, but LTDC and HTDC are still solid choices. With no BD145 or an other large disks in Limited, a lot of stuff is going to be pretty short. I feel like that works more against LTDCs because they will be making a lot more metal-on-metal contact, as opposed to say 230RB where you just hit the Spin Track. I can't really make a good point but it seems like it's better to go with one of the extremes rather than try to stay in the middle.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Mitsu - Aug. 02, 2015
So, now with RS unbanned, I still believe HTDC or in this case 230RS combo isn't so great. Like 230RSF and RB, it can still very well handle Pegasis, Wyvang and other types of right-spin attack that were initially proposed for the tier-list. Omega CH120 and Dark Knight Girago LTAC (Other Dark Knight LTAC will still also work; Girago was the option though because of it being able to make late-game KOs.) aren't it's strong side.
Here's a couple of tests I did a couple of weeks back:
MF-H Libra 230RS versus MSF-H Dark Knight Girago (Crystal Mode Up) CH120RF
Bottoms slightly worn down. Libra launched first all matches.
Libra: 2/20 (2 OS, 0 KO)
Girago: 18/20 (0 OS, 18 KO)
Libra win rate: 10%
Dark Knight got very easy KO's. Unlike the benchmark below, it wasn't able to OS because of it being able to topple, which was how it had won its matches while RF would just fall down. There still was contact, though, but it didn't really matter since it came down to LAD.
Benchmark:
MF-H Libra 90RS versus MSF-H Dark Knight Girago (Crystal Mode Up) CH120RF
Bottoms slightly worn down. Libra launched first all matches.
Libra: 10/20 (10 OS, 0 KO)
Girago: 10/20 (8 OS, 2 KO)
Libra win rate: 50%
Libra's win rate increased by almost 50%. As odd as it, however, it was only 40% because of Dark Knight being able to OS (as I saw Dark Knight was able to do from previous tests). On Libra 90RS's part, it was kind of sad how it was able to do so. At the same time, Girago did only manage to get 2 KO's. The results between the two heights were vice-versa in terms of OS and KO, but in defense's case, it's obviously better to be taking hits well.
Also, let's talk RSF and RB attack. Put aside RSF attack on Wyvang customization, they're not on the tier-list, but it was definitely mentioned a little while ago here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-RB-and-RSF-Use-in-Attack-LTD.
Personally, others may not agree with me, but I'm not the biggest fan nor do I think they should be up there. There were multiple times I've witnessed Wyvang RSF combo not be able to KO a non-defensive combo. Despite more controllability than RF and R2F, they generally are less aggressive making it harder to KO things like F230CF/GCF which may be harder to catch up to. We can see that in this video with Wyvang RSF and Gravity F230GCF.
What do you guys think about them, though?
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - LMAO - Aug. 02, 2015
I want to test Libra 230RS some more, I believe more tests will reflect how well it did at AN.
I'll get some more tests up tomorrow.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Wombat - Aug. 02, 2015
I'm actually very surprised that Zirago managed to KO 230 more than 90, seeing as it would only be making plastic-on-metal contact (and therefore dealing less damage) against 230 while having more or less direct metal-on-metal contact with 90. The increase in OSs against 90 makes sense though. Can you do benchmarks with Lightning CH120RF or Omega 100RF? I understand if you don't want to wear down your RS though.
Also, before someone calls me out on this and says testing scenarios are different than tournament scenarios, aren't they supposed to simulate them as much as possible? After all, you test a combo to get an idea of how well it would perform in a tournament. And be real with me, how often do you use CH120 over a short Track like 90 or 85 on DK Zirago in a tournament?
As for RSF/RB based Attack, from what I've seen it doesn't perform very well. Unless you count that weird "Active Defense" (as people are calling it now) combo I've beaten it every time I've faced it. Lightning D125RB went 0-3 against a joke combo at AN because it lacked the power to land any KOs. With a more worn RB it was more aggressive and had more grip, but it still lost to my Omega and Pyrus10000's Dark Knight in the finals.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - [)ragon - Aug. 04, 2015
(Aug. 02, 2015 3:35 AM)Wombat Wrote: Unless you count that weird "Active Defense" (as people are calling it now)...
I believe that was one user who may have had his plastics and MFB terminology mixed up (unfortunately, multiple other users followed suit). "Active Defense" is both misrepresentative and incorrect. The correct definition for a combination like Wyvang RSF would be "Attack/Defense Hybrid." It's addressed in this Beywiki article.
Sorry, just my OCD kicking in. XD
Anywho, I agree completely with Wombat; what real reason is there to use Dark Knight on CH120? It's an LTAC Wheel. DK CH120 isn't even competitive, technically (not that it's an ineffective custom, per say, but it's not really aligned with DK's conventional application).
Wombat Wrote:I'm actually very surprised that Zirago managed to KO 230 more than 90, seeing as it would only be making plastic-on-metal contact (and therefore dealing less damage) against 230 while having more or less direct metal-on-metal contact with 90.
That's because pretty much all the Smash Attack Dark Knight Attack customs have comes from the actual Dark Knight Crystal Wheel. The slope and the orb on the one side of DK provide some pretty ridiculous firepower. That said, if a Dark Knight Attack customs isn't making plastic-to-metal contact, it's probably in trouble (the biggest reason it's only used on LTAC, and the biggest reason Dark Knight Girago CH120RF had so much trouble taking down Libra 90RS in the above testing).
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Kei - Aug. 17, 2015
(Aug. 02, 2015 1:57 AM)Mitsu Wrote: Also, let's talk RSF and RB attack. Put aside RSF attack on Wyvang customization, they're not on the tier-list, but it was definitely mentioned a little while ago here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-RB-and-RSF-Use-in-Attack-LTD.
Personally, others may not agree with me, but I'm not the biggest fan nor do I think they should be up there. There were multiple times I've witnessed Wyvang RSF combo not be able to KO a non-defensive combo. Despite more controllability than RF and R2F, they generally are less aggressive making it harder to KO things like F230CF/GCF which may be harder to catch up to. We can see that in this video with Wyvang RSF and Gravity F230GCF.
What do you guys think about them, though?
That wasn't a good example to use if you're arguing against the strength of RSF/RB Attack: I won that battle 3-2 after going down 0-2 (which the video shows). And my RSF wasn't aggressive enough as it could have been in the first couple battles–probably because of my launch power–so I made an adjustment and came out victorious in the end.
As you know, Omega RB combos were very popular and successful at the Toronto tournament today. I beat L Drago Guardian F230CF with it. RB/RSF Attack is so deadly because it is basically a safer and more controllable version of RF ... It might lose against something like Libra 90RS or a faster Attack type using RF (but even in this case the win is not guaranteed for the Attack type especially with Omega RB), but otherwise, it has the ability to win against practically anything, much like "regular" RF Attack does, except without nearly as much risk. It's a huge problem in my opinion, and why I am leaning towards trying out a ban on RSF/RB. With RS back, we have a Bottom that can be used solely for Defense and realistically nothing else, so I see little reason to keep RSF/RB since they so often are being used as a way to build easy-to-use Attack types.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - JesseObre - Aug. 17, 2015
In my opinion I think RB/RSF should be banned. From experience using these two pieces in tournaments, each are fairly easy to use. Also when u use it with an attack wheel (for example Omega or Lightning) it is very OP. Banning this would benefit others so people can have more choices in what to use, and make the meta more competitive but also keep combos from spamming a lot.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Wombat - Aug. 17, 2015
(Aug. 04, 2015 4:19 PM)[)ragon Wrote:(Aug. 02, 2015 3:35 AM)Wombat Wrote: Unless you count that weird "Active Defense" (as people are calling it now)...
I believe that was one user who may have had his plastics and MFB terminology mixed up (unfortunately, multiple other users followed suit). "Active Defense" is both misrepresentative and incorrect. The correct definition for a combination like Wyvang RSF would be "Attack/Defense Hybrid." It's addressed in this Beywiki article.
As far as I know, "Active Defense" wasn't a term in Plastics either, it was a term Dracomageat coined in the Wyvern thread. And I wasn't talking about Wyvang RSF, I was talking about Bregirados RS, which is also an Attack/Defense Hybrid but with a less aggressive movement pattern. So it is, as Dracomageat described himself, Active Defense.
@RE: Banning RSF/RB: While I clearly wasn't at the last Toronto event today that made you all think this, I'm still opposed to it. If you get rid of RSF and RB all that's left is RS (which is used for only Defense) and CS. I still think CS is as good as RSF or RB for Defense but others disagree with me and will see CS - RS as a larger margin of "get OSed or get KOed". As for their use in Attack, I haven't found them to be as threatening as conventional Attack in my experience seeing as Jade WD was able to beat Lightning RB 3-0. I don't even think Lightning hit hard enough to even cause a Wall Save... I can test Lightning RB and Omega RB later.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - JesseObre - Aug. 17, 2015
Wombat I think I'll do the same for this. Gonna start contributing more to the WBO to help the community. I'll post this week some tests
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - LMAO - Aug. 17, 2015
I think they both should be banned as well, they are just way to versatile and its annoying. Having just RS and CS for defense will be enough since they are just for pure defense and nothing more, while RSF and RB work as aggressive defense types that can OS loads of things. Example: Libra 100?RSF outspun a Libra TH170D with ease. Obviously more testing should be done on them, but personally I believe they deserve a ban.
RE: MFB: Limited :: Competitive Customs List and Public Discussion - Mitsu - Aug. 17, 2015
(Aug. 17, 2015 1:42 AM)Kei Wrote: As you know, Omega RB combos were very popular and successful at the Toronto tournament today. I beat L Drago Guardian F230CF with it. RB/RSF Attack is so deadly because it is basically a safer and more controllable version of RF ... It might lose against something like Libra 90RS or a faster Attack type using RF (but even in this case the win is not guaranteed for the Attack type especially with Omega RB), but otherwise, it has the ability to win against practically anything, much like "regular" RF Attack does, except without nearly as much risk. It's a huge problem in my opinion, and why I am leaning towards trying out a ban on RSF/RB. With RS back, we have a Bottom that can be used solely for Defense and realistically nothing else, so I see little reason to keep RSF/RB since they so often are being used as a way to build easy-to-use Attack types.
I'm pretty inbetween on the ban, personally.
I'd say that Omega and Lightning RSF/RB are working options for attack, I still do prefer my rubber flats. From experience, RSF and RB aren't always going to have guaranteed aggression, whereas you most likely would with a good-condition rubber flat. From what I say yesterday, RSF and RB did have it, but it didn't last as long as those of rubber flat's. Right now, I'd say a pretty good portion of the top-tier attack combos on our list have some success KO'ing defense combination. I don't feel as RSF and RB would work as successfully do the same.
The two bottoms, however, are still very versatile as they can defend, knockout and sometimes have enough stamina to outspin certain combos (although it the two tips should be relied on solely for that purpose).
LMAO Wrote:I think they both should be banned as well, they are just way to versatile and its annoying. Having just RS and CS for defense will be enough since they are just for pure defense and nothing more, while RSF and RB work as aggressive defense types that can OS loads of things.
CS basically has all-around use but it basically can never be portrayed in one single combo. It can be used for attack a bit of the time, but generally isn't so successful. It should never used over RS solely for defense, either.