+- World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. (https://worldbeyblade.org)
+-- Forum: Beyblade Discussion (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-Discussion)
+--- Forum: Beyblade General (https://worldbeyblade.org/Forum-Beyblade-General)
+--- Thread: Deathscyther AND Dark Deathscyther banned in Japan! (/Thread-Deathscyther-AND-Dark-Deathscyther-banned-in-Japan)
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Bey Brad - Jul. 21, 2016
Ah. Not a totally unlikely reason.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - juncction - Jul. 21, 2016
I feel like the reason why there isn't a Deathscyther killer or any real strong attacker really is because they probably don't want to accelerate the game. I have strong suspicion that they know what can beat it and probably have designs that are efficient at it. But... if you release something that beats stamina with consistency, then something else will have to take it's place. They probably like the pace of the game currently and where it stands and want to continue to earn revenue from it's gimmicky gameplay before they actually release strong attackers or beys that can resist the whole mechanic itself. They probably didn't like how "well-designed" Deathscyther was in relation to the burst mechanic and how it fares in comparison to the other layers.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Kai-V - Jul. 21, 2016
(Jul. 20, 2016 11:53 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote:(Jul. 20, 2016 10:58 PM)Stormscorpio1 Wrote: I don't really see why everyone seems to be so surprised by this news, at TT events it's literally all Deathscyther that does good. I really think that we should look at this and consider taking this action upon ourselves as well.I definitely agree with this, Deathscyther has been an overused part in all meta games since its release. Regardless of whether it is actually over powered or if it is just overused I believe we should take action and ban Deathscyther. With it removed from our meta game it could potentially make the game more diverse and less bland like it is currently. Almost every burst event all the placers have used at least 1 Deathscyther combination, this is not good for the game. There is not any other layer that appears to be to be used as much as Deathscyther currently.
What? It is nowhere near even overused, let alone particularly overpowered, in any of our metagames. All of our tournaments sure usually see one Deathscyther among winning combinations, but there are always several other Layers used. If anything, the only part that is overused is Revolve, not Deathscyther at all. As Brad mentioned, just because TAKARA-TOMY bans it does not mean that we should automatically consider it, because we have been judging how our own metagames are going since the beginning of this game and we would have taken action (and asked the community about it) if we ever found that a part needed to be banned, like in Odin's case.
About TAKARA-TOMY and Deathscyther, it probably does not help that they clearly categorise their parts wrong. If they had seen Deathscyther or marketed it for what it was, a Stamina Layer, then we know for a fact that they would have made its teeth rather vulnerable. However, because of whatever unknown and probably stupid reason, TAKARA-TOMY categorised it as an Attack Layer and gave it great teeth.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Dark_Mousy - Jul. 21, 2016
I'm a bit shocked by this news. But after playing at Beyblade North and the last NC tournament I can see why It was banned to an extent. Im interested to see how Odin will be used over the coming months.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Kei - Jul. 21, 2016
(Jul. 20, 2016 1:56 PM)OkinawamTS Wrote: because in Japan almost nobody use Odin
and all the bladers that have Deathscyther usually use it in tournament
now they are gonna have to think about another Layer, and Odin is not really an option coz sold out in Japan for a really long time.
Except that one guy who spammed OHD at the event in Osaka I won that we went to and placed second haha.
At least in G1 events I don't see the availability of Odin being a problem; all of the top players from the top teams probably have many of them already, just like the top players on the WBO do. Odin also doesn't have teeth wear issues, which is important to note. Should be interesting to see how this plays out ... I wonder if it will be solely Odin that takes Deathscyther's position, or if something like Dark Deathscyther sees some use.
(Jul. 20, 2016 2:58 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: Really shocked by this news. Never thought they would go this far.
I'm not that shocked. I mean ... DHD is almost literally the only combo the top players are using. VHX makes an appearance sometimes–and seemed to be relatively successful and in high use at the WBOxWARIBEY event–but obviously it wasn't consistent enough to make it a viable counter in high pressure situations like G1 events.
(Jul. 21, 2016 2:25 AM)juncction Wrote: I have strong suspicion that they know what can beat it and probably have designs that are efficient at it.
Yeah, I mean Chaos technically has better Stamina than Deathscyther, but seemingly they intentionally gave it terrible teeth to counteract that. So, I don't think there's any question that they are capable of creating something stronger than it.
(Jul. 21, 2016 2:57 AM)Kai-V Wrote:(Jul. 20, 2016 11:53 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote:(Jul. 20, 2016 10:58 PM)Stormscorpio1 Wrote: I don't really see why everyone seems to be so surprised by this news, at TT events it's literally all Deathscyther that does good. I really think that we should look at this and consider taking this action upon ourselves as well.I definitely agree with this, Deathscyther has been an overused part in all meta games since its release. Regardless of whether it is actually over powered or if it is just overused I believe we should take action and ban Deathscyther. With it removed from our meta game it could potentially make the game more diverse and less bland like it is currently. Almost every burst event all the placers have used at least 1 Deathscyther combination, this is not good for the game. There is not any other layer that appears to be to be used as much as Deathscyther currently.
What? It is nowhere near even overused, let alone particularly overpowered, in any of our metagames. All of our tournaments sure usually see one Deathscyther among winning combinations, but there are always several other Layers used. If anything, the only part that is overused is Revolve, not Deathscyther at all. As Brad mentioned, just because TAKARA-TOMY bans it does not mean that we should automatically consider it, because we have been judging how our own metagames are going since the beginning of this game and we would have taken action (and asked the community about it) if we ever found that a part needed to be banned, like in Odin's case.
Exactly. A part being consistently used doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem in the metagame as long as there remains a variety of parts around it that are also used. And in this case with a powerful, yet flawed part like Deathscyther, the metagame is more about picking and choosing the proper moments to use Deathscyther than defaulting to it whenever you're not sure what to use.
That being said, I do think it is worth more deeply analyzing exactly why there is this rift between the Japanese metagame and the WBO metagame. Why has Odin been a problem for us but not for Japanese players? Why has Deathscyther been a problem for Japanese players but not really for WBO players?
Why is stationary Attack so prevalent among WBO users, but never among the top players in G1 events? I do know some Deathscythers are definitely harder to burst than others, and there's things you can do with your launch technique to help give Deathscyther a better chance against stationary Attack, but it doesn't completely explain the seeming complete dearth of that type of combo in the Japanese metagame.
I don't have all of the answers right now, but when I was planning the WBOxWARIBEY event with Jumbo from WARIBEY he didn't really understand why Odin was banned when I told him it would have to be that way for the WBO event we hosted. And then I went there Odin didn't really stand a chance against their tuned Deathscythers in the WARIBEY and TT events. Its been so long since I've done a ton of testing on Odin, but I feel like we shouldn't necessarily dismiss the idea of banning Deathscyther (and potentially unbanning Odin).
(Jul. 21, 2016 2:57 AM)Kai-V Wrote: About TAKARA-TOMY and Deathscyther, it probably does not help that they clearly categorise their parts wrong. If they had seen Deathscyther or marketed it for what it was, a Stamina Layer, then we know for a fact that they would have made its teeth rather vulnerable. However, because of whatever unknown and probably stupid reason, TAKARA-TOMY categorised it as an Attack Layer and gave it great teeth.
Hm, I don't know if this point is entirely valid because Deathscyther kind of rides the line between Attack and Defense/Stamina type teeth since they vary in size. For example, if Deathscyther had Odin teeth, it would probably be garbage due to its higher recoil. That's part of why the design of Deathscyther is so good; TAKARA-TOMY must have been conscious of the fact that it had great Stamina, but they also knew it had high recoil and as a result gave it a balanced teeth design that gave it a chance to succeed at what it was truly good at.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Thunder Dome - Jul. 21, 2016
So this is a question to anyone who has been in contact with the Waribey or Japanese community in general, have they ever explained to you why they believe Deathscyther is better than Odin? I know communication with them is probably difficult but it would be interesting to know their opinion seeing as many members on here believed Odin to be ban worthy, while over there they believe Deathscyther was superior.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Zoroaste - Jul. 22, 2016
I think it is possible, and highly likely, that a tuned Deathscyther is better than a tuned Odin. But ON AVERAGE, Odin has better balance than Deathscyther.
This would explain it perfectly
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Kai-V - Jul. 22, 2016
What do you mean by 'tuned'? Right out of the box? That is what I have to do with all of my Deathscyther Layers now, it is way too risky to make a combination with even a slightly used Deathscyther because it bursts too easily.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Hato - Jul. 22, 2016
(Jul. 22, 2016 2:37 AM)Kai-V Wrote: What do you mean by 'tuned'? Right out of the box? That is what I have to do with all of my Deathscyther Layers now, it is way too risky to make a combination with even a slightly used Deathscyther because it bursts too easily.
I think he means a perfect balance/better balanced DeathScyther.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Kei - Jul. 22, 2016
(Jul. 22, 2016 2:37 AM)Kai-V Wrote: What do you mean by 'tuned'? Right out of the box? That is what I have to do with all of my Deathscyther Layers now, it is way too risky to make a combination with even a slightly used Deathscyther because it bursts too easily.
When I mentioned it in my post, I was referring to the "tuned" Deathscyther combos (not literally Deathscyther by itself) that they create using the bearing device I spoke about in my Japan report. Basically, they use the device to find the perfect combination of Deathscyther, Heavy, and Defense for optimal stamina and balance. If teams like WARIBEY are testing their parts and combos to such an extreme degree and they are choosing Deathscyther over something like Odin, then maybe what Zoroaste is saying is true. Of course, a lot of this is still a little bit unclear because of the language barrier.
And really? I think saying a "slightly used" Deathscyther "bursts too easily" is a bit of an exaggeration.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Cye Kinomiya - Jul. 22, 2016
I agree with Kai-V about a slightly used Deathscyther bursting too often. I've lost so many matches against Neptune by Burst.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Kai-V - Jul. 22, 2016
Yes, I had not noticed a great difference in the beginning, but the more the game evolves, the more a slightly used Deathscyther is no good.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - ThaKingTai - Jul. 22, 2016
Maybe we should consider unbanning Odin, considering that the problem that people have with the two combos is Defence. Odin isn't super versatile as it's not as good when on Revolve and neither is Deathscyter. But the problem has been Defence. Maybe it's time to ban that? I'm only basing this off of what I've read on this site here, so I don't have direct experience with Odin nor Deathscyther.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Kei - Jul. 23, 2016
(Jul. 22, 2016 9:47 AM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: I agree with Kai-V about a slightly used Deathscyther bursting too often. I've lost so many matches against Neptune by Burst.
Wow, can't recall ever seeing this happen against Neptune. I'll try to do some more testing sometime with "slightly used" Deathscythers versus brand new ones.
(Jul. 22, 2016 5:41 PM)ThaKingTai Wrote: Maybe we should consider unbanning Odin, considering that the problem that people have with the two combos is Defence. Odin isn't super versatile as it's not as good when on Revolve and neither is Deathscyter. But the problem has been Defence. Maybe it's time to ban that? I'm only basing this off of what I've read on this site here, so I don't have direct experience with Odin nor Deathscyther.
I don't know about this. Revolve is actually the Driver of choice right now for WBO players (as is evidenced by the winning combinations for most Burst events since April); I found it to be generally equal to Defense when it came out, but Revolve just sort of caught on. But in Japan, Defense appears to have remained king. I'm not sure if it's due to anything that makes one inherently better than the other in any obvious or consistent way since they are so closely matched.
Right now the best thing to do would be for areas to conduct test tournaments where Deathscyther is banned and Odin is legal to see what the difference in the metagame feels like. Honestly, I think I'd rather ban a Layer that does have teeth wear issues (Deathscyther) than one that doesn't. Maybe we can do it in Toronto sometime soon ...
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Wombat - Jul. 23, 2016
[Image: UEkPwyE.png]
I'm frankly shocked that seemingly none of the top players there figured out stationary Valkyrie beats DHD consistently (especially when TT released one of these combos stock), even in the abscence of VHX or other “traditional” Attack combos.
I don’t think Deathscyther is overused in WBO tournaments, just used as much as any good part should be. Personally, I don’t trust Deathscyther enough to use it in an event on a stationary combo. It just bursted way too often for me even from the beginning, and the two times I’ve used it have been on DSA (and in one of those battles I got Bursted at least once by geetster's OHD, which echoes Cye's experience vs Neptune). I much prefer Neptune’s tradeoff of some Stamina for an increase in Burst Defense, which can generally be remedied by using Gravity (though my Knuckle balances slightly better on my Neptune) and a strong launch.
Obviously the balance-tuned Deathscythers the pros use are going to beat a non-balance-tuned Odin, so I wouldn’t put too much thought into that. I’ve found that Deathscyther has more raw Stamina than Odin and will outspin it if it doesn’t Burst (which happens quite frequently, in my experience OHD bursts DHD about half the time). With the mysterious lack of Burst Attack in the Japanese meta it’s not really surprising that players would choose Deathscyther over Odin. A balance-tuned Odin would probably be generally more dangerous than a balance-tuned Deathscyther in a meta where Burst Attack is more prevalent.
As for why no one switched to Revolve might have something to do with money. After buying a carp ton of Deathscythers and Spriggan Heavy Defenses to find the "perfect" one, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of players would be loath to buy a similar amount of Rising Ragnaruks to get a perfect Revolve and Gravity, especially if the improvement from Defense to Revolve is as small as Kei suggests. Though I expect Defense to see a renaissance around here soon since being a ball it's more resistant to Dark Destabilizer than Revolve is.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Real_ilinnuc - Jul. 23, 2016
This is pretty crazy, didn't think Deathscyther would be THAT op.
What would be the best counter to it?
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Leo Burst - Jul. 23, 2016
OHD or OHR does the trick
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Bey Brad - Jul. 23, 2016
(Jul. 23, 2016 6:46 AM)Real_ilinnuc Wrote: This is pretty crazy, didn't think Deathscyther would be THAT op.
What would be the best counter to it?
Valkyrie Heavy/Gravity Revolve is also very popular. Even many many months ago, Valkyrie Heavy Claw was crushing Deathscyther-based combos constantly. I agree with Wombat's post, for the most part; I don't think Deathscyther is overpowered. It does have teeth wear issues but I find it to be pretty gradual. (Of course, I still consider it an unacceptable amount.)
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - cadney - Jul. 24, 2016
I agree with everything Wombat said. I was shocked when I saw this on Twitter because I'm constantly seeing Deathscyther bested (typically burst) by stationary Valkyrie combos. I know Valkyrie is fleeting, so maybe it isn't the greatest point that Deathscyther's achilles heel is only good for a couple tournaments before being disposable, but it's still an incredibly reliable counter when used by experienced players.
Odin, by contrast, I haven't judged empirically at tournaments to have a reliable counter (it has counters, but many are risky to use) so now I'm wondering what kind of Odin Hell Japan's community may be walking into. I remember our Odin Hell tournaments...
Only time will tell I guess! I'm interested to find out.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - UGottaCetus - Jul. 26, 2016
This is just the original Deathscyther, and not the Dark Deathscyther, right?
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Burst - Jul. 26, 2016
(Jul. 26, 2016 5:52 PM)UGottaCetus Wrote: This is just the original Deathscyther, and not the Dark Deathscyther, right?Yes Only the Original Deathscyther is banned and not the D2. It was really used a lot in Japan.
Cheers !!!
Burst.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Kai-V - Sep. 07, 2016
It looks like people in Japan are indeed just SPAMming Odin, and some Dark Deathscyther, now hah:
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - Kei - Sep. 08, 2016
As expected haha. Interesting in that first video that there was a round where the new mold white Chaos defeated Odin pretty handily, though. Haven't tested that myself, although I do remember narrowly beating JesseObre's OHD with CRD at Beyblade Shogatsu earlier this year (first mold Chaos, obviously).
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - NEET no Kami - Sep. 08, 2016
odin hell has begun, although there are counters at least, like chaos and V2.
RE: Deathscyther banned from official tournament! - cadney - Sep. 08, 2016
I knew Odin hell would immediately befall them...
I'm interested to see some tests on how the new white Chaos with improved teeth will perform as a counter to Odin, though!