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+--- Thread: Should we ban Basalt? (/Thread-Should-we-ban-Basalt--38222)
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Dan - Aug. 11, 2011
Well quickly counting 5 of us are for leaving it as is and 2 are for completely banning it. 0 of us voted on specifics.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Shabalabadoo - Aug. 11, 2011
I only see that kei is for banning it.
Unless you think I want it banned? I'm still undecided.
Edit: oh, blah. Then never mind, my bad
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Dan - Aug. 12, 2011
This is a decision which affects the entire community therefore all of the community should be able to choose if they wish. Leaving it to only us is very shortsighted and wrong. I would use some type of election metaphor but I think the point is obvious as is.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Kai-V - Aug. 12, 2011
(Aug. 12, 2011 4:03 AM)Dan Wrote: This is a decision which affects the entire community therefore all of the community should be able to choose if they wish. Leaving it to only us is very shortsighted and wrong. I would use some type of election metaphor but I think the point is obvious as is.
Hm, even with the public poll on banning the Libra Wheel, I think the majority did not want it to be banned, but we made it clear that we wanted to read good reasons, and in the end we might have 'listened' more to people who, at that time, could have been Veterans or potential Advanced Members when this forum did not exist yet. A lot of people just did not have good reasons, and this would probably be the case again, but with an even larger crowd. Plus, I believe that if Advanced Members are not able to imagine all the possible point of views of the community and come up with a common solution, then we have a problem.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Dan - Aug. 12, 2011
I'd be assuming the members voting would have valid reasons other than voting for fun. Even so, the number of votes for each are almost accordingly with the amount of votes by advanced members with the exception of banning specific customs.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Mc Frown - Aug. 12, 2011
(Aug. 12, 2011 4:03 AM)Dan Wrote: This is a decision which affects the entire community therefore all of the community should be able to choose if they wish. Leaving it to only us is very shortsighted and wrong. I would use some type of election metaphor but I think the point is obvious as is.
Yeah but we could make a thread in normal customizations forum for that.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Dan - Aug. 12, 2011
True but what do we do if polls conflict? lol
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Uwik - Aug. 12, 2011
I'm still strongly against it for the reasons that I posted earlier in this thread. But since ultimately, it's the committees' decision, it'd be great to see where they stand in this. I know Kei is all for it before. How about the rest?
At the very least wait until Blitz' meetup this weekend, and see the results.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - ikmv - Aug. 12, 2011
With the release of Basalt from Hasbro. Alot more people will have access to this wheel and i think alot more effort in finding counters for it.
I am all for not banning it as it is a deterrent for atk type beyblades completely dominating.
One thing to consider also. Not enough people have tested Scythe nor have come out of their comfort zone to come up with viable counters or combos.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Cye Kinomiya - Aug. 12, 2011
People weren't using attack types before Basalt anyway. I doubt they will. I do agree that with Basalt being gone attack types will have an advantage, unless rubber ball is as awesome as I want it to be.
EDIT: Actually, someone should test MF-H Libra TH170RS or any other combos you think are better with Libra and RS. If it can hold it's own against attack types then defense would not be shafted. If it doesn't work then I hope RB will.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Shabalabadoo - Aug. 12, 2011
I don't have TH170 or RS, but I've tested flame, hell, and libra on 230 RSF and they didn't stand a chance. RS shouldnt be too far away from that. Gravity BD145 RF, Gravity GB145 RF, Hell kerbecs Bd145 RF are the combos I used, and they just destroyed the 230 RSF.
Flame actually did the best.
Is 170 and 195 height used often in defense? Or is that just when paired with CS to use against other basalt variants?
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Cye Kinomiya - Aug. 12, 2011
Well, I usually use 170 against attack types that are at 145 and 220 against anything lower than 145.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Uwik - Aug. 12, 2011
@Cye: I've done those Libra RS tests before. Libra RS should be LTDCs, instead of above 170. Direct contacts from a decent attack combo (Variares, Fang, Beat) with the Libra MW would still send Libra flying. Basalt is really the answer to the current attack wheels.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Cye Kinomiya - Aug. 12, 2011
In that case I revert back to my "hope RB solves this problem" state of
mind.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Kai-V - Aug. 12, 2011
So, if Basalt is the best against Attack types, and that Basalt already wins a lot of tournaments, who will bother using Attack types ? I think this question has been present before Basalt. I do not believe that you can be absolutely certain that if Basalt is banned, only Attack types will be used. They might be used more than at the moment, but I doubt they will dominate except with the Bladers who are actually good with them, which is really a small portion in each location, I think.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Cye Kinomiya - Aug. 12, 2011
Yes, I agree with that. Attack types will have the advantage, but there will be a very small number of players confident enough to use them in tournaments.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Kai-V - Aug. 12, 2011
So, you have a metagame where Stamina and Defense are used way more, and another metagame where there would be some more place for Attack, no ? In this discussion, we have to remember both formal tests, but also tournaments.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Uwik - Aug. 12, 2011
(Aug. 12, 2011 7:01 AM)Kai-V Wrote: So, if Basalt is the best against Attack types, and that Basalt already wins a lot of tournaments, who will bother using Attack types ? I think this question has been present before Basalt. I do not believe that you can be absolutely certain that if Basalt is banned, only Attack types will be used. They might be used more than at the moment, but I doubt they will dominate except with the Bladers who are actually good with them, which is really a small portion in each location, I think.
qft. I can speak for my metagame, that people are using stam / def combos against Basalt. Things like (Basalt, Hell, and soon: Sycthe). With Basalt gone, while theoretically attack should be popular, it will not be. People would still use other stam / def combos. Hence, there's no need to ban it.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Kai-V - Aug. 12, 2011
(Aug. 12, 2011 7:06 AM)Uwik Wrote: qft. I can speak for my metagame, that people are using stam / def combos against Basalt. Things like (Basalt, Hell, and soon: Sycthe). With Basalt gone, while theoretically attack should be popular, it will not be. People would still use other stam / def combos. Hence, there's no need to ban it.
Well, I am mostly writing these posts because I think we could, on the contrary, try to ban Basalt, hah. We just have to look for the subtle changes, benefits.
However, my opinion is still vague.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Cye Kinomiya - Aug. 12, 2011
People have always been afraid to use attack types. I think the tournament scene will always be that way. I think even if the tornado ridge problem didn't exist it would still be that way.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Uwik - Aug. 12, 2011
(Aug. 12, 2011 7:11 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Well, I am mostly writing these posts because I think we could, on the contrary, try to ban Basalt, hah. We just have to look for the subtle changes, benefits.
However, my opinion is still vague.
Yikes. I knew this thread was a teaser...
In all honesty, I doubt that the changes will be huge on the current metagame anywhere in the world. Beneficial? Perhaps, but still it'll be minimal.
I can, however, foresee that in the future, should WBO lift the ban on Basalt, new bladers would use it ten-fold due to the hype, kind of like what happened with Libra.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Serotonin - Aug. 12, 2011
(Aug. 12, 2011 7:03 AM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: Yes, I agree with that. Attack types will have the advantage, but there will be a very small number of players confident enough to use them in tournaments.
Agreed; we constantly throw this notion of "Attack types will dominate" whenever we discuss bans involving Basalt / Libra, but even when Libra was banned, I don't think this decimated the playing field as much as everyone likes to think.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Shabalabadoo - Aug. 12, 2011
Yeah, lord wolfblade was telling me that even when libra was banned and the top defense combo used earth GB145, few people used attack types.
There's obviously hesitation, but with basalt the way it is, if people aren't confident to beat earth GB145, then there's no way they're confident against basalt.
Besides, who wouldnt want an easy win? Attack types you have to work for it.
I'm still not sure about if I think banning is best or not. With the parts that are out currently, if basalt were to be banned, 230 would be out for defense. Leaving one main defense combo (libra BD145) which to me seems to mostly balance the attack
Right now though, i think the best way to figure out if MFB would be better without basalt, would be a short temporarily ban. So that's where I stand right now. Possibly even for the end half of September until B:D comes out. After B:D comes out, chances are things'll change, but we obviously won't know what will until B:D gets released. So I don't think a temporary ban will do much or any harm.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Serotonin - Aug. 12, 2011
I think it's logistically difficult to just impose a temporary ban on Organised Play, however. It's far easier for people to just have meet ups to see what the effects are on a smaller level. However, I agree mostly with your other points.
Another factor we have to consider is the strength of RS/RSF, which are also difficult to knock out nearly irrespective of Wheel choice. So, there are quite a few options for Defense even without Basalt.
RE: Should we ban Basalt? - Shabalabadoo - Aug. 12, 2011
(Aug. 12, 2011 5:20 PM)♥ Wrote: Another factor we have to consider is the strength of RS/RSF, which are also difficult to knock out nearly irrespective of Wheel choice. So, there are quite a few options for Defense even without Basalt.
I did tests against MF-H libra Bd145 RSF, against MF gravity Perseus 85/d125/AD145/GB145 Rf (left and right spin) and against Hell Kerbecs 85/D125/AD145/BD145 RF. The results were high for libra; 85+%.
I actually threw out the papers with the full numbers, but the most wins for the attack beyblade was 3/4 out of 20. BB-96 libra.
230 defense stinks without basalt though, which might be a benefit if basalt were to be banned. With hell kerbecs for stamina, 230 isn't very useful there either. Flame CS might win against hell kerbecs, but hell kerbecs can also benefit from CS.
(I know I'm repeating my other posts here quite a bit)
However, I did notice that BD145 normal mode isn't a nice fit on libra, it wobbles. can anyone else try putting those two together and see if it's the same?