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+--- Thread: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables (/Thread-Tier-Vs-Skill-The-Constantly-Confusing-Variables)
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 02, 2011
(Mar. 02, 2011 6:06 AM)Mc Frown Wrote:(Mar. 02, 2011 6:02 AM)Deikailo Wrote: You're right, it was pretty lame. All of New york's plastic metagame changed its launch technique because they were bored, not because they were trying to avoid mid-air collisions.launch lower in the stadium with your and in the way
problem solved
and to be fair new york/new jersey dont even play the same game as the majority of us on this site, all of your combos methods and results are completely different from anywhere else
Quote:who is your cousin?someone who isnt as good as bluezee but hedoesnt suck
Maybe everyone else should enhance their game a bit then because obviously something is going right if all the "top-tiers" with very few exceptions are failing.
And if you must know, NY/NJ tried the whole "launch lower in the stadium" thing. The beyblade still has to come off the launcher at some point and it has to be a certain height in the air according to rules. Its almost unavoidable unless you catapult your bey into the stadium floor upon launch.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Pimpju - Mar. 02, 2011
If it works, people usually try it again. If you let the combo do the work, how is that any different from regular launching?
If thats the case then that means your combo has advantage over the other anyway.
All your suppositions can be simplified into two:
Will they use the technique, so they can win faster?
Will they lau ch normally because their combo has advantage over yours.
That's really not a big thing to think about.
Even if you add in the third variable, that they use a different technique, there really isn't much of a difference in counter measure.
The number of launch techniques can generally be summarized by sliding shoot, or some form of gattyaki.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 02, 2011
(Mar. 02, 2011 6:20 AM)momiji manju Wrote: If it works, people usually try it again. If you let the combo do the work, how is that any different from regular launching?
If thats the case then that means your combo has advantage over the other anyway.
All your suppositions can be simplified into two:
Will they use the technique, so they can win faster?
Will they lau ch normally because their combo has advantage over yours.
That's really not a big thing to think about.
Even if you add in the third variable, that they use a different technique, there really isn't much of a difference in counter measure.
The number of launch techniques can generally be summarized by sliding shoot, or some form of gattyaki.
Your statements are referring to generally accepted ideas or counter measures but in a situation where you the launch is unlike what you have prepared for, what will you do? What happens when your counter does not work?
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Mc Frown - Mar. 02, 2011
(Mar. 02, 2011 6:10 AM)Bluezee Wrote: Do you really want to take time to plan all that out during a simple 3,2,1 Go Shoot?
you can stall it out
also, do they really want to take the time to plan all that?
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Pimpju - Mar. 02, 2011
What happens if your gattyaki doesnt work? Same deal. Tell me what other sort of launch strategies that are simPly not a variation of those two, and have drastically different defensive strategies? Besides, unless you have experience ceramic that opponent you never have a full understanding of what their launch will be like and can only prepare for generalities and adapt to the differences between their technique and the proper form it branched from.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Mc Frown - Mar. 02, 2011
if someone gattyakis you another viable strategy would be to make a heavy beyblade and gattyaki them, or launch it actross the stadium to land on their side
it doesnt seem particularly hard to counter
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 02, 2011
(Mar. 02, 2011 6:34 AM)Mc Frown Wrote: if someone gattyakis you another viable strategy would be to make a heavy beyblade and gattyaki them, or launch it actross the stadium to land on their side
it doesnt seem particularly hard to counter
if they already do it to you and youre in the middle of a match, what good will your advice be when you can not alter your blade to make it heavier?
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Deikailo - Mar. 02, 2011
avoiding gattyaki is also takes skill.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Pimpju - Mar. 02, 2011
Not really, seeing as your beyblade is a small moving target. If I do a flat launch, chances are the opponent still won't hit it. And if you miss your gattyaki you just have a screwed up launch
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Deikailo - Mar. 02, 2011
the only time I've ever screwed up my launch from missing is when my hands were shaking. Most of the time, my misses end up being a variant of sliding shoot.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Pimpju - Mar. 02, 2011
Congratulations on your god like launch, but a single flick of the wrist in another direction/ all other counters to gattyaki still trump your technique. If they gattyaki your bey as well then it'll break your flower pattern as well
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Otsu - Mar. 02, 2011
skill will definitely be a huge factor when it comes down to low to mid, mid-high skill levels. but once it gets to that upper echelon, such as grand finals or semi-finals, tier will win at the end of the day.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - BladeStorm - Mar. 02, 2011
I believe Tier on the WBO is for theoretical "Best"-beyblade-in-that-category-award. I believe it has little to do with actual tournament play. I regard combo tier lists on the WBO as a different form of playing the game than competetive play.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - overlordpriere - Mar. 02, 2011
I believe such misconception happens when people began to generalize "using top tier vs bottom tier = win".
From what I know in general gaming term, having something at top tier simply means that it would be easier to win a match using it rather than using non top tier. In my opinion, tier is simply a benchmark to measure something without the involvement of the player influence. Comparing them each other to decide which one truly decides the match simply does not work.
Of course those "things" are specific combo of Beyblades in this case.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - GaleForce - Mar. 02, 2011
Skill is way better than tier.
It's the way you rip it, different accessories and what kind of stadium they're battling in.
Tier has nothing to do with it. But I must admit, Tiers sometimes are good.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Cye Kinomiya - Mar. 02, 2011
Yep. Skill is important. The thing is, the majority of players don't have the basics down at all. That's why people can beat top tier combos with unorthadox ones. People don't practice and can't launch properly
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - iXus - Mar. 02, 2011
(Mar. 02, 2011 2:29 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: Yep. Skill is important. The thing is, the majority of players don't have the basics down at all. That's why people can beat top tier combos with unorthadox ones. People don't practice and can't launch properly.
Exactly what happens in HK. So some random kid builds a oh-so-great combo based off a top-tier, and I can beat him with Dark Wolf. I'm pretty sure Diamond knows this as well. To be honest, to these kids I look like a Beyblading God, which no one really is, it's just that I use proper launches, like sliding shoot. I use top tiers as well, but all it takes to beat these guys is skill.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Pimpju - Mar. 02, 2011
basic skills aren't exactly hard to get down, really. Sliding shoot and gattyaki are really as hard as it gets.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 02, 2011
(Mar. 02, 2011 2:50 PM)momiji manju Wrote: basic skills aren't exactly hard to get down, really. Sliding shoot and gattyaki are really as hard as it gets.
You seem quite sure about what you are talking about but to a small extent. You keep bringing up "but if I" proposals rather than "this will happen for sure and I know this because...here is why" comments. Unless you have played a person outside of your region and come into a community where people play much differently than those in Australia who may not be as skillful and can not counter what you bring to the table, how do you expect to know what works and doesn't? What are you basing your arguement on? Deikailo has been to more than one region and each time, her launch works on everyone. She doesnt use it that often and perfect it for no reason. She specializes in it. Sure, its not impossible to beat it but only a very select few can as it stands and even then, it proves to be more than formidable and there is never a 3-0 match with her.
What I am saying is, unless you can mirror EXACTLY what she is doing, if you dont have a combo that can survive a direct hit like that or even a launching strategy to get away from it, more than likely, knowing gattayaki will get you no where and you will still be a sitting duck. Her combos are made specifically where even if she misses the shot, she will still recover and produce KOs or in some cases, outspins. She is by far one of the most skilled bladers I have even played against and from my memory, she does not use a single "top-tier" combo and they all work against almost anything.
In conclusion, her skill and complete understanding of both gattayaki and sliding shoot over powers some of the most regarded top-tier combos to date. By shooting in such a way that she can not only do gattayaki perfectly and also have it done in such a way that if she misses, it will go into sliding shoot is a prime example of why skill beats counter measures and tier. I may sound biased because she is practically one of my best friends but I am absolutely telling the truth.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - H8R - Mar. 02, 2011
I very much Agree but it's not just the launch that bugs me It's also the the decreasing amount of attention that people are giving to parts that are already top tier parts in their very own category such as burn
burn is one of the best stamina wheels available but people think because it is top tier in stamina they cant get any more decent combos out of it if you watch diamond's YouTube videos burn cancer 85r2f does extremely well against defense combos and believe it or not I tried making this combo before i saw his vids!
parts that have been let go of are supposedly useless but what are WE doing about it we could take some of the least worried about parts and make them top tier ..no even stronger then top tier REscolpioT15JB's combos are great enough to beat top tier ones one of these is Meteo L-Drago 100JB people let the testing begin!!!!!!!!!
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Bluezee - Mar. 02, 2011
(Mar. 02, 2011 2:29 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: Yep. Skill is important. The thing is, the majority of players don't have the basics down at all. That's why people can beat top tier combos with unorthadox ones. People don't practice and can't launch properly
I agree with your first 2-3 sentences. However, I would not generalize the reason why people beat top tier with unorthodox combos by saying it is because they cant launch properly, practice, or know the basics. For example, Deikailo's "Hell on Earth" combo would be considered unorthodox right? I practice almost everyday in some form but with attackers, particularly LL Drago CH120RF, I have yet to defeat it consistently. I know every traditional or currently advanced launching technique and do them all effectively especially sliding shoot with the exception of Gattayaki which I am working on now but I practically have it down perfectly with heavier blades.
To be completely honest, I actually specialize a whole lot more with attackers and spin-stealers than anything else. I have been using these stamina combos in tournaments for experimenting more or less just to see if the results I get when I test alone or with my team the same ones I will get at a tournament full of people. Also, I do it because I already know what the tournament scene will look like. Earths, Thermals, and Burns for the most part before the semi-finals. I honestly hate stamina just as much as I hated compacts in the plastic generation. The matches are extremely boring but I figure, okay, if you want to bore me, I will bore you and by the time I come back from across the room the battle should be over. Take a look in my hoody pocket at the next tournament. You will notice that I only carry one or on VERY rare circumstances or occasions, two stamina combos.
Skill comes into play in all battles and the basics should definitely be known. More often than not, after listening to Deikailo and having her show me what she meant, parts that are known as being bad are really good when they are combined with other bad parts. Her combo MF Saggitario M145RF is probably one of the most odd, unorthodox, yet useful and effective combo I know.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Pimpju - Mar. 02, 2011
to be fair the only unorthodox part is M145.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Poseidon - Mar. 02, 2011
well here are my views there is only a limit to how many revolutions a beyblade can do with a launcher, top tier combos are supposedly the best combos for that attribuit . (for stamina) If you have a top tier combo and launch it with the max number of revolutions and make the launcher as straight as possible and use a top tier combo Vs stamina the result shjould go you way
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - Cye Kinomiya - Mar. 02, 2011
(Mar. 02, 2011 2:50 PM)momiji manju Wrote: basic skills aren't exactly hard to get down, really. Sliding shoot and gattyaki are really as hard as it gets.
You're right. It isn't that hard. People still aren't doing it. At least in New York anyway. I'm talking just straight shot or banking.
Also, Bluezee: I have no idea what her hell combo is, but I'm fairly certain you can beat it with a top tier combo, even if you can't beat it with that specific top tier combo.
RE: Tier Vs. Skill: The Constantly Confusing Variables - neoknux_009 - Mar. 02, 2011
while i havent been around the MF series for too long.. atm a beyblade match is probably based 80 - 90% on the combo, with that small 10 - 20 percent based on skill (in terms of launch techniques etc). Its a shame because i think the game would be much more enjoyable if more skill were involved.
I have to agree with momiji manju... getting to the skill of being able to perform sliding shoot isnt that hard. it might take a couple of hours at most. gattyaki is much different (im also working on it) but its risky and its pretty easy to counter/defend agaisnt with your own launch if your opponent is using this technique.
ive developed a couple of shooting techniques myself... i think the beyblade community would prosper much more if majority of people focussed on new shooting techninques, and blades based on these techniques. Currently its far ...far...too combo based... Bladers are always worrying about the newest product to beat everyone.
Because better and better combos are always being researched, this 80- 90% percentage is further cemented.
perhaps ill release these new techniques later*
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of course then there is the concept of skill being the ability to counter an opponents combo with your own combo....but then its still based way too much on combos.