(Jan. 29, 2011  7:27 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: I don't think deception techniques are talked about enough here. If you can lead the opponent to believe you're using something you're not, the match is pretty much yours.

(Jan. 29, 2011  9:11 PM)Dan Wrote: I have no clue why you would choose 230 with RS.. Balance man, balance.
MF-L Earth Bull 230CS..

(Jan. 29, 2011  9:19 PM)Deikailo Wrote: I find that LRF works very nicely with M145. Because of the spiral, it cuts back on recoil while maintaining a nice grip in the stadium. The grip makes the blade bounce [up] to hit your opponents wheel.

However, there are more efficient ways of countering 230. 230 really isn't that hard to beat.
Edited..? I think this is what you meant.

(Jan. 29, 2011  7:27 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: I don't think deception techniques are talked about enough here. If you can lead the opponent to believe you're using something you're not, the match is pretty much yours.

This is why I love recolours. The colour will throw your opponent off on certain occasions.

(Jan. 29, 2011  9:11 PM)Dan Wrote: I have no clue why you would choose 230 with RS.. Balance man, balance.
MF-L Earth Bull 230CS..

Last week, a large amount of my wins while using 230 were KO's when it was unbalanced. The AR will come down like a hammer and smash it out. Although I haven't tested RF, I would not assume that it couldn't become a crucial attack track if used correctly.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:08 PM)Dan Wrote: Yes, but RS is OS by RF's amirite? putting RS on 230, which likes to wobble, I assume will make that worse, I think?

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:08 PM)Dan Wrote: Yes, but RS is OS by RF's amirite? putting RS on 230, which likes to wobble, I assume will make that worse, I think?

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:14 PM)Deikailo Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:08 PM)Dan Wrote: Yes, but RS is OS by RF's amirite? putting RS on 230, which likes to wobble, I assume will make that worse, I think?

Oh wait, I read that as RF my bad lol

RS on 230 isn't terrible, but at that point, you couldn't pair it with Earth. I haven't tried using many other wheels, but since RS isn't as balanced, you'll want to pair it up with another heavier wheel that isn't balanced, that way you'll be using the blade's instability to your advantage. 230 has a good recovery rate. Often times when it tips, it can pick itself back up again. While it's down, the wheel has the opportunity to attack at a different angle.

There's a lot you can do with 230 other than a stable defensive/stamina combo. Honestly, the blade is best used when unstable.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:14 PM)Deikailo Wrote: RS on 230 isn't terrible, but at that point, you couldn't pair it with Earth.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:14 PM)Deikailo Wrote: There's a lot you can do with 230 other than a stable defensive/stamina combo. Honestly, the blade is best used when unstable.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:15 PM)SSJfisherman Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:08 PM)Dan Wrote: Yes, but RS is OS by RF's amirite? putting RS on 230, which likes to wobble, I assume will make that worse, I think?

I think rsf (other than cs) may be better on 230 than RS. It will give a little more stamina, while, like deikailo said, letting 230 wobble.
The tests that proved RS was better than rsf did not include 230, so I think some more tests need to be done to see if the results on gb145 and r145 match 230. Obviously, cs has been proven better, but Its good to see how RS and rsf compare on 230 to the 145 height.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:26 PM)Fyuuor Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:14 PM)Deikailo Wrote: RS on 230 isn't terrible, but at that point, you couldn't pair it with Earth.

That's the thing I do pair it with Earth and still get great win rates

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:14 PM)Deikailo Wrote: There's a lot you can do with 230 other than a stable defensive/stamina combo. Honestly, the blade is best used when unstable.

I agree with the idea of it having untapped potential as a wobbler as the very first thing I thought of when I heard of 230's release was 'wobbler'. It's just that I haven't had much luck with creating one yet, lol.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:39 PM)Deikailo Wrote: That's because Earth 230 has great win rates in general, but Bakushin Bull tr145ewd will beat Earth Bull 230rs nearly every time.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:39 PM)Deikailo Wrote: That's because Earth 230 has great win rates in general, but Bakushin Bull tr145ewd will beat Earth Bull 230rs nearly every time.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:39 PM)Deikailo Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:26 PM)Fyuuor Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:14 PM)Deikailo Wrote: RS on 230 isn't terrible, but at that point, you couldn't pair it with Earth.

That's the thing I do pair it with Earth and still get great win rates

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:14 PM)Deikailo Wrote: There's a lot you can do with 230 other than a stable defensive/stamina combo. Honestly, the blade is best used when unstable.

I agree with the idea of it having untapped potential as a wobbler as the very first thing I thought of when I heard of 230's release was 'wobbler'. It's just that I haven't had much luck with creating one yet, lol.

That's because Earth 230 has great win rates in general, but Bakushin Bull tr145ewd will beat Earth Bull 230rs nearly every time.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:42 PM)Fyuuor Wrote: So far I've only done a little testing on it but I've tried it with different Metal Faces, ie MF - H, L, F as well as quite a few Attack Wheels even in an attempt to create Force Smash such as Galaxy, Quetzalcoatl, Pegasus, Thermal and Flame. I've also tried it with a few different tips to no avail such as ES, MS, HF/S, S, BS and CS.

Hopefully you can find something that I've might of over looked, maybe Hell might be of some use due to the weight of the wheel? I know that MF - L Hell Bull 230CS is actually a decent combo which can out spin the majority of 145 Stamina and Defence combos so there may be some hope.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:49 PM)Fyuuor Wrote: For the time being I think it's safe to say that the results that you achieve with LSTC's Bluezee over 230 is an anomaly since the majority of members results are quite different.

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:54 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:49 PM)Fyuuor Wrote: For the time being I think it's safe to say that the results that you achieve with LSTC's Bluezee over 230 is an anomaly since the majority of members results are quite different.

Well, I have also gotten the same results with Flame Bull 100SF, MF-H Killer Bull 85/100FS, AND Gravity Perseus 100R2F, oh and MF-H Pegasis 145RF

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:57 PM)Kei Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:54 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:49 PM)Fyuuor Wrote: For the time being I think it's safe to say that the results that you achieve with LSTC's Bluezee over 230 is an anomaly since the majority of members results are quite different.

Well, I have also gotten the same results with Flame Bull 100SF, MF-H Killer Bull 85/100FS, AND Gravity Perseus 100R2F, oh and MF-H Pegasis 145RF

So, you beat 230RS or CS with a 100% win percentage with all of those customs? I can see Gravity Perseus getting some wins, but the rest of them ...

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:04 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:57 PM)Kei Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:54 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:49 PM)Fyuuor Wrote: For the time being I think it's safe to say that the results that you achieve with LSTC's Bluezee over 230 is an anomaly since the majority of members results are quite different.

Well, I have also gotten the same results with Flame Bull 100SF, MF-H Killer Bull 85/100FS, AND Gravity Perseus 100R2F, oh and MF-H Pegasis 145RF

So, you beat 230RS or CS with a 100% win percentage with all of those customs? I can see Gravity Perseus getting some wins, but the rest of them ...

230CS. It's actually quite normal IMO. Killer beats it with the clear wheel, Flame does as well, and Pegasis works but not all the time. I would say it win 7/10 rounds w/o KO. I could post a video. I cant find my CS atm but WD should suffice for showing Killer Bull and Flame's effectiveness. Agreed?

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:10 PM)Fyuuor Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:04 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:57 PM)Kei Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:54 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:49 PM)Fyuuor Wrote: For the time being I think it's safe to say that the results that you achieve with LSTC's Bluezee over 230 is an anomaly since the majority of members results are quite different.

Well, I have also gotten the same results with Flame Bull 100SF, MF-H Killer Bull 85/100FS, AND Gravity Perseus 100R2F, oh and MF-H Pegasis 145RF

So, you beat 230RS or CS with a 100% win percentage with all of those customs? I can see Gravity Perseus getting some wins, but the rest of them ...

230CS. It's actually quite normal IMO. Killer beats it with the clear wheel, Flame does as well, and Pegasis works but not all the time. I would say it win 7/10 rounds w/o KO. I could post a video. I cant find my CS atm but WD should suffice for showing Killer Bull and Flame's effectiveness. Agreed?

It can to a point,the biggest advantage of CS is that it gives the 230 combo even more added height which makes it more difficult to defeat.

To be honest I find it a little hard to believe that you can achieve all those victories against 230. I've seen the video of you testing 230WD VS 85WD and it's still a little hard to fathom that you can beat 230CS with all of those combos listed. I'm not saying that you lied or manipulated the footage in way of the slightest, though it just seems a little weird that the only explanation is that it's your 'incredibly strong' launching style.

It's just very puzzling

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:17 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:10 PM)Fyuuor Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:04 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:57 PM)Kei Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:54 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:49 PM)Fyuuor Wrote: For the time being I think it's safe to say that the results that you achieve with LSTC's Bluezee over 230 is an anomaly since the majority of members results are quite different.

Well, I have also gotten the same results with Flame Bull 100SF, MF-H Killer Bull 85/100FS, AND Gravity Perseus 100R2F, oh and MF-H Pegasis 145RF

So, you beat 230RS or CS with a 100% win percentage with all of those customs? I can see Gravity Perseus getting some wins, but the rest of them ...

230CS. It's actually quite normal IMO. Killer beats it with the clear wheel, Flame does as well, and Pegasis works but not all the time. I would say it win 7/10 rounds w/o KO. I could post a video. I cant find my CS atm but WD should suffice for showing Killer Bull and Flame's effectiveness. Agreed?

It can to a point, the biggest advantage of CS is that it gives the 230 combo even more added height which makes it more difficult to defeat.

To be honest I find it a little hard to believe that you can achieve all those victories against 230. I've seen the video of you testing 230WD VS 85WD and it's still a little hard to fathom that you can beat 230CS with all of those combos listed. I'm not saying that you lied or manipulated the footage in any way of the slightest, though it just seems a little weird that the only explanation is that it's your 'incredibly strong' launching style.

It's just very puzzling

I know what you mean. In fact, if I did not know me, I would think its weird as well. Thing is though, I have been launching like this, but to a weaker extent, since the plastic era. I find it rather normal and at the last tournament, combos using 230CS lost to my combos that used 85-100WD. I used MF-H Gravity Perseus GB145FS against MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS. 230 got destroyed after the first tie. I dont see why it is so hard to beat or "game breaking". I have more trouble beating 145 based defense combos than 230 anything.

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:14 PM)GaHooleone Wrote: You, know speaking of added height, what of 230HF/S in S mode? Gives good stamina, possible super-powered wobbling, and HF/S is the tallest bottom out their, giving added height. And wouldn't a metal wheel with a raised perimeter be useful too, to make it harder to strike? For example, Flame Bull 230HF/S? Sounds good to me, don't know about all of you.

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:39 PM)Fyuuor Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:17 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:10 PM)Fyuuor Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:04 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:57 PM)Kei Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:54 PM)Bluezee Wrote:

(Jan. 29, 2011  10:49 PM)Fyuuor Wrote: For the time being I think it's safe to say that the results that you achieve with LSTC's Bluezee over 230 is an anomaly since the majority of members results are quite different.

Well, I have also gotten the same results with Flame Bull 100SF, MF-H Killer Bull 85/100FS, AND Gravity Perseus 100R2F, oh and MF-H Pegasis 145RF

So, you beat 230RS or CS with a 100% win percentage with all of those customs? I can see Gravity Perseus getting some wins, but the rest of them ...

230CS. It's actually quite normal IMO. Killer beats it with the clear wheel, Flame does as well, and Pegasis works but not all the time. I would say it win 7/10 rounds w/o KO. I could post a video. I cant find my CS atm but WD should suffice for showing Killer Bull and Flame's effectiveness. Agreed?

It can to a point, the biggest advantage of CS is that it gives the 230 combo even more added height which makes it more difficult to defeat.

To be honest I find it a little hard to believe that you can achieve all those victories against 230. I've seen the video of you testing 230WD VS 85WD and it's still a little hard to fathom that you can beat 230CS with all of those combos listed. I'm not saying that you lied or manipulated the footage in any way of the slightest, though it just seems a little weird that the only explanation is that it's your 'incredibly strong' launching style.

It's just very puzzling

I know what you mean. In fact, if I did not know me, I would think its weird as well. Thing is though, I have been launching like this, but to a weaker extent, since the plastic era. I find it rather normal and at the last tournament, combos using 230CS lost to my combos that used 85-100WD. I used MF-H Gravity Perseus GB145FS against MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS. 230 got destroyed after the first tie. I dont see why it is so hard to beat or "game breaking". I have more trouble beating 145 based defense combos than 230 anything.

The thing is since you defeated 230CS opponents at a Tournament we can't argue that it was your launching style of 230 in the videos that you posted. The only thing that'll now come under question is the launching technique of the opponents whom used 230 at the Tournament, now if we start questioning your opponents technique who used 230 things may be getting a little silly.

I've tried launching an 85WD combo against 230WD with various different launching angles and techniques and unfortunately I couldn't recreate your results, I constantly recorded the 230 combo winning. The only thing that threw the results slightly towards 85WD was when the 230WD combo was launched quite recklessly or launched severely off balance to begin with which allowed the 85WD combo to continue disrupting the 230WD combo's balance enough for it to begin to become incredibly top heavy.

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:14 PM)GaHooleone Wrote: You, know speaking of added height, what of 230HF/S in S mode? Gives good stamina, possible super-powered wobbling, and HF/S is the tallest bottom out their, giving added height. And wouldn't a metal wheel with a raised perimeter be useful too, to make it harder to strike? For example, Flame Bull 230HF/S? Sounds good to me, don't know about all of you.

I've tested it myself. While using HF/S the combo does avoid the majority of the opponents Attacks but it's during the final stages of a battle which it proves to be ineffective. In the dying stages of battle a HF/S survival isn't as great as CS's and HF/S tends to 'collapse' onto of the opponent which doesn't cause enough damage to alter the opponents spin rate and the HF/S combo simply stops spinning as a results. In contrast a CS combo can out spin the combo which HF/S failed to do.

(Jan. 29, 2011  11:46 PM)Bluezee Wrote: If this is just a matter of launching power and technique, what does this due to the game?