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+--- Thread: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? (/Thread-Ban-Odin-Heavy-Defense)
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Bey Brad - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 2:57 AM)Hato Wrote: Thank you for the Testings, Brad!
Very interesting how V2 does seem to handle Odin fairly well in your Testings (but again, I will wait for others until I draw my own conclusions). I wish both my Xtremes weren't worn and my Odin wasn't trash now (maybe wearing? I don't know why it's so horrible now). I will try Accel, though, seeing as @[ZachBob] had some success with it and possibly still being viable.
Doubtful, as there's not much there to wear down. It might just be your perception.
I did try V2GZ, which didn't seem to do too poorly but not great, either.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Kei - May. 21, 2016
Wow, thanks a lot for doing this! Seeing the points comparison of the results using the new proposed rules was really insightful.
I'd really like to go ahead and make the change for BeyDays as well–so as to avoid a long string of Winning Combinations lists filled to the brim with Revolve–but I'll have to defer to how others feel about going ahead with such a massive ruleset change before making any final decisions. But if there's any time to do it, it would be right now when we can test the rules in hugely meaningful and competitive environments. I ran a tournament for fun recently after a regular Toronto event using these rules, but wasn't able to discern much meaning given that there was no real incentive to play seriously. There is also precedent set in the similar ruleset that TAKARA-TOMY has adopted, so it isn't coming from nowhere either.
Maybe the reason we all feel like Attack has never been entirely viable without an very high level of skill is because we demanded so much out of Attack users to be successful with them in the first place: three round wins. Using this new ruleset, using Attack will still require skill, but will become much more competitively viable with a slightly easier path to victory. And as a result of increased Attack usage, the format will likely become much more balanced than it is right now with Stamina dominating: Defense will see a rise in use, and Stamina will maintain use as well because of the increase in use of Defense.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Bey Brad - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 3:07 AM)Kei Wrote: But if there's any time to do it, it would be right now when we can test the rules in hugely meaningful and competitive environments.
Yes, Kei. Give into my insanity.
For what it's worth, I doubt the worst possible outcome of doing so could be any worse than the DHR > WHR > VHR triangle that's going on right now.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Kei - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 3:11 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: For what it's worth, I doubt the worst possible outcome of doing so could be any worse than the DHR > WHR > VHR triangle that's going on right now.
That was pretty much my conclusion haha. You can throw NHR in there somewhere too.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Hato - May. 21, 2016
I just finished up my testing with Victory Valkryie, and it was quite interesting;
Odin Heavy Defense vs Victory Valkryie Knuckle Accel
Odin launched at about 50% (trying for Golden Launch)
OHD: 1 BF, 1 KO, 4 OS
V2KA: 11 (1 Burst Priority) BF, 1 KO
2 DBF
OHD Win Rate: 40%
Take it as you wish.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - ZachBob - May. 21, 2016
Wow these tests are awesome, thanks everyone for taking the time and risking your V2's to do these.
V2KA would have 24 points to OHD's 8 in hato's test which is pretty impressive from that perspective. I highly recommend trying knuckle on V2 for anyone who hasn't. V2KA seems to self burst less than V2_A with any other disc I've tried on it for some reason. I also recommend trying accel/zephyr on that combo over xtreme due to it bursting itself less on a plastic tip.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - LMAO - May. 21, 2016
Just thought I would give my 2cents on this whole thing for banning Odin for Beydays. First off, thanks Brad and Hato for the tests, really gave a new perspective to my outlook on V2. However, just because there is one counter (not complete counter) to Odin Heavy Defense, doesn't mean Odin should be unbanned. V2 is an extremely unreliable part nonetheless, I've seen a few broken ones already in the short few months it's been out. It's not even getting reliable numbers against Odin, something like 80-20 would feel a lot more comfortable. Remember that Odin completely destroys everything else, so unbanning it wouldn't be very wise, especially since there would be ONE counter to it, and that counter being pretty unreliable. Plus, if Odin is unbanned, we're just going to see heavy use of Odin Heavy Revolve/Defense being used against any attack combination, and completely destroying it.
With the DHR > WHR > VHR situation, that can be shaken with a ban on Revolve. Simple as that, but I guess that would be a post for another thread lol.
The ruleset change would make Attack a more viable option to use, but imo it shouldn't be a rushed decision going into Beydays, it should be properly tested out first in a few areas, rather than a sudden unban, which completely throws off what Bladers had in mind for use during any of the Beydays events.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Ninja Blader - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 2:18 PM)LMAO Wrote: With the DHR > WHR > VHR situation, that can be shaken with a ban on Revolve. Simple as that, but I guess that would be a post for another thread lol.
Yeh! I think there should be a thread on banning Revolve. All the winning combinations for burst have a Revolve.
#BANREVOLVE
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Mitsu - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 2:18 PM)LMAO Wrote: However, just because there is one counter (not complete counter) to Odin Heavy Defense, doesn't mean Odin should be unbanned. V2 is an extremely unreliable part nonetheless, I've seen a few broken ones already in the short few months it's been out.
To add on to this, weak launching is still a super viable option in our game. While V2 might be able to Burst and Knockout Odin with a regular launch, it might have a harder time when Odin is launched lighter.
(May. 21, 2016 2:18 PM)LMAO Wrote: The ruleset change would make Attack a more viable option to use, but imo it shouldn't be a rushed decision going into Beydays, it should be properly tested out first in a few areas, rather than a sudden unban, which completely throws off what Bladers had in mind for use during any of the Beydays events.
Agreed. I like the ruleset and I imagine it would fix the issue of too much Revolve. I would still encourage regions to experiment with the idea. It might be a very good step worth taking.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Cake - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 2:28 PM)Mitsu Wrote:(May. 21, 2016 2:18 PM)LMAO Wrote: However, just because there is one counter (not complete counter) to Odin Heavy Defense, doesn't mean Odin should be unbanned. V2 is an extremely unreliable part nonetheless, I've seen a few broken ones already in the short few months it's been out.
To add on to this, weak launching is still a super viable option in our game. While V2 might be able to Burst and Knockout Odin with a regular launch, it might have a harder time when Odin is launched lighter.
The recent tests in this thread were done with a weak-launched Odin.
(May. 21, 2016 2:28 PM)Mitsu Wrote:(May. 21, 2016 2:18 PM)LMAO Wrote: The ruleset change would make Attack a more viable option to use, but imo it shouldn't be a rushed decision going into Beydays, it should be properly tested out first in a few areas, rather than a sudden unban, which completely throws off what Bladers had in mind for use during any of the Beydays events.
Agreed. I like the ruleset and I imagine it would fix the issue of too much Revolve. I would still encourage regions to experiment with the idea. It might be a very good step worth taking.
Now that I've thought about it a bit, I think I would rather have the rule implemented before Beydays, simply because I would rather not participate in a metagame so heavily dominated by Revolve combos - it just seems stale and uninteresting
In addition, I would really prefer to implement the double-valued Attack rule as opposed to banning Revolve. One banned part in a format that isn't Limited is more than enough; we should avoid another ban when there are other options available to us.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Bey Brad - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 3:43 PM)Cake Wrote: In addition, I would really prefer to implement the double-valued Attack rule as opposed to banning Revolve. One banned part in a format that isn't Limited is more than enough; we should avoid another ban when there are other options available to us.
Agreed. Revolve just came out and it hasn't had the petrifying effect on the metagame that Odin did.
We're not going to unban Odin for BeyDays; however, adopting the 2-points system for Beyblade North is an option. How would everyone feel about that?
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Ultra - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 3:43 PM)Cake Wrote:(May. 21, 2016 2:28 PM)Mitsu Wrote:(May. 21, 2016 2:18 PM)LMAO Wrote: However, just because there is one counter (not complete counter) to Odin Heavy Defense, doesn't mean Odin should be unbanned. V2 is an extremely unreliable part nonetheless, I've seen a few broken ones already in the short few months it's been out.
To add on to this, weak launching is still a super viable option in our game. While V2 might be able to Burst and Knockout Odin with a regular launch, it might have a harder time when Odin is launched lighter.
The recent tests in this thread were done with a weak-launched Odin.
(May. 21, 2016 2:28 PM)Mitsu Wrote:(May. 21, 2016 2:18 PM)LMAO Wrote: The ruleset change would make Attack a more viable option to use, but imo it shouldn't be a rushed decision going into Beydays, it should be properly tested out first in a few areas, rather than a sudden unban, which completely throws off what Bladers had in mind for use during any of the Beydays events.
Agreed. I like the ruleset and I imagine it would fix the issue of too much Revolve. I would still encourage regions to experiment with the idea. It might be a very good step worth taking.
Now that I've thought about it a bit, I think I would rather have the rule implemented before Beydays, simply because I would rather not participate in a metagame so heavily dominated by Revolve combos - it just seems stale and uninteresting
In addition, I would really prefer to implement the double-valued Attack rule as opposed to banning Revolve. One banned part in a format that isn't Limited is more than enough; we should avoid another ban when there are other options available to us.
I don't see how this is any different to before Revolve was released. People would have still been using stamina but you seem not have an issue with that because it was two possible parts instead of one.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Bey Brad - May. 21, 2016
Yeah, I don't think the situation would be that different sans Revolve — everyone would just be using Gyro instead.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - LMAO - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 4:36 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: Agreed. Revolve just came out and it hasn't had the petrifying effect on the metagame that Odin did.
LOL have you seen the Toronto Winning Combinations as of late? Revolve dominates everything. Just like Odin took over the winning combinations, Revolve is doing the same. Even if we did use the points system as the new ruleset, something like Neptune Heavy Revolve would still very easily be able to beat Valkyrie and Xcalibur attack combos. If both people use Revolve, then the new points ruleset doesn't change anything.
Gyro is nowhere nearly as good as Revolve, people would use it, yes, but it wouldn't be putting up as many wins as Revolve does now.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Nocto - May. 21, 2016
Disclaimer: (Click to View)
I did a short rundown of the thread to see how Odin won (on non-attack Drivers), rather than how much it won. Of course, you can find all kinds of ifs and buts to how relevant that data is: the pool of testers and results can be considered small; the ban of Odin Heavy Defense can be seen as proof of its exceptional qualities compared to other parts of the time; etc. Anyway, blah blah justification blah, the data collected has Odin win 14 times by knock out, 82 times by burst finish and 55 times by outspin.
I don't think it's necessary to prove that Attack types are harder to use or that knock outs are harder to achieve for most people. Beyblade has a long history to make its case and given that history, scoring knock outs for two points seems like a terrific idea. However, considering the results in this thread, including Brad and Hato's most recent tests, burst finishes, to me, seem too frequent or fickle to truly be worth a significant advantage in scoring, especially since it doesn't seem to be tied to any specific type.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Bey Brad - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 6:23 PM)LMAO Wrote:(May. 21, 2016 4:36 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: Agreed. Revolve just came out and it hasn't had the petrifying effect on the metagame that Odin did.
LOL have you seen the Toronto Winning Combinations as of late? Revolve dominates everything. Just like Odin took over the winning combinations, Revolve is doing the same. Even if we did use the points system as the new ruleset, something like Neptune Heavy Revolve would still very easily be able to beat Valkyrie and Xcalibur attack combos. If both people use Revolve, then the new points ruleset doesn't change anything.
Gyro is nowhere nearly as good as Revolve, people would use it, yes, but it wouldn't be putting up as many wins as Revolve does now.
Yes, I have. I witnessed (and exploited) a similar situation in Montréal, so no need to laugh in my face
There is a world of difference between Odin's impact (all combinations are the same) versus Revolve's impact (all competitive combos use the same Driver, but there are still variances in the Layers — and to a lesser extend, the Disks – used).
Also, the new points system would definitely have an impact on Revolve Vs. Revolve matches — specifically, Valkyrie Heavy Revolve Vs. Deathscyther Heavy Revolve. 2-point Bursts would put immense pressure on all Deathscyther-based combos.
Whether or not the 2-point-buff would be enough to incentivize Attack-types to be played enough, it would still incentivize them more than the current structure allows. Do you disagree?
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - 1234beyblade - May. 21, 2016
This is literally playing out just like MFB in the past...
WD was dominant for defense and stamina
Earth was dominant for defense and stamina (Deathscyther is just good for stamina, though Neptune is defense and stamina)
There was only 2 good attack wheels lightning and pegasis (Valk and Xcal) (though I guess leone, sagittario, and quetz were good alternatives which we do not have in burst).
Libra was banned (just like Odin)
I really don't see a need to change anything.
The two point for KO and Burst would make people pick attack more, but Neptune really does beat everything, so it would not stop people from picking Neptune to be safe and if both people choose to be safe like LMAO said then the point system doesn't change anything unless someone gets bursted unluckily (which if one does, bless your poor soul).
This would also add quite a bit of luck, attack vs attack is very very unpredictable and if you're the one getting unlucky then you're just screwed (IDC about deathscyther vs deathscyther luck, those deserve to get bursted lol), there is like no chance to come back because it can take only 2 rounds for someone to win versus that one extra chance if the point system was the same.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - LMAO - May. 21, 2016
So you're saying something like Odin Spread Zephyr and Odin Heavy Defense are the same and would have the same impact? The fact that Revolve can be used on so many varieties of Layers just proves it's dominance. Odin is extremely versatile and combines well with many other parts. The fact that Revolve fits well into the whole triangle of Wyvern, Valkyrie, and Deathscyther is concerning. Add Neptune into the mix, and you'll see Revolve just being used on every customization. Burst is broken because of Revolve, since now it's literally the same 3-4 combinations always being used. How to solve that problem? Get rid of Revolve.
You can very easily beat Valkyrie Heavy Revolve with Deathscyther Heavy Revolve by light launching. If anything we'd be seeing more Revolve matches due to it being so versatile, and being able to match up well with most things.
If Odin were to be unbanned, and was used with Heavy Revolve in the points ruleset, I honestly can't think of one thing that would be able to beat it. However, Odin is banned, but Neptune is a good enough replacement, and can do a lot of damage paired with Heavy Revolve.
Yes, definitely, but the fact remains that Revolve would still be constantly used, and wouldn't change very much apart from matches that don't really involve Revolve.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Zoroaste - May. 21, 2016
I think that the 2pts rule would be a great thing to at least try out. I think that there are ways to exploit people's overuse of Revolve for sure and the 2 pt rule would definitely be incentive enough to get people to do it.
I think that Odin should be unbanned too really. I personally think that attack may be too favored now with the 2 pt rule and Odin might help balance it out.
We always thought that we knew more than the Japanese, or at least I did. Now we have found out that we really don't, I think that the fact that they hardly even use Odin over Deathscyther should speak to why it's present ban is unnecessary with that rule in place
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Ultra - May. 21, 2016
LMAO:
Yes it's used because it's good. Honestly what's the problem with that? Previously the only Stamina drivers were Survive and Defence. Just because one driver has outclassed them both and is used more is not a problem.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - 1234beyblade - May. 21, 2016
Wait wasn't the competitive scene literally VHG, DHG, WHG not so long ago... Sure defense also competed... but it's still the same thing of mostly all combos being stationary...
(May. 21, 2016 6:57 PM)Zoroaste Wrote: We always thought that we knew more than the Japanese, or at least I did. Now we have found out that we really don't, I think that the fact that they hardly even use Odin over Deathscyther should speak to why it's present ban is unnecessary with that rule in place
Pretty sure Kei stumbled them all when he was winning with OHD (or some odin combo)
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - LMAO - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 6:57 PM)Ultra Wrote: LMAO:
Yes it's used because it's good. Honestly what's the problem with that? Previously the only Stamina drivers were Survive and Defence. Just because one driver has outclassed them both and is used more is not a problem.
Survive and Defense were nowhere near as versatile.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - MiddayOBWL - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 6:33 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: There is a world of difference between Odin's impact (all combinations are the same) versus Revolve's impact (all competitive combos use the same Driver, but there are still variances in the Layers — and to a lesser extend, the Disks – used).
So, this part seemed kind of off to me. With Odin, there was variety with the drivers used. There were things like Claw, Defense, Survive, Blow, Zephyr, and even Xtreme. Now with Revolve, it's vice-versa. Now, the layers have good variety too, like DeathScyther, Neptune, Wyvern, and Valkyrie.
Also, something else I noticed: Odin got banned because it was dominating the meta, and now Revolve is being discussed because it is dominating. On the other hand, Heavy is used in almost every combo, no matter if it's attack, defense or stamina.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Ultra - May. 21, 2016
(May. 21, 2016 6:59 PM)LMAO Wrote:(May. 21, 2016 6:57 PM)Ultra Wrote: LMAO:
Yes it's used because it's good. Honestly what's the problem with that? Previously the only Stamina drivers were Survive and Defence. Just because one driver has outclassed them both and is used more is not a problem.
Survive and Defense were nowhere near as versatile.
Based on what? People used Survive on Wyvern and Valkyrie just like they're using Revolve on them now. Also yeah I agree with Brad that there is a large difference between a Layer having no proper counters and dominating everything else and a driver doing the same.
RE: Ban Odin Heavy Defense ? - Hato - May. 21, 2016
I just did some testing with Odin Heavy Revolve;
Odin Heavy Defense vs Victory Valkryie Knuckle Accel
Odin was weak launched
OHD: 9 OS
V2KA: 5 BF, 6 KO
V2 Win Rate: 55%
This is when I launched it parallel to the stadium, but I found when I tilted my launcher a little when I launched, it made it harder to Burst (I should probably go test that right now). V2 may be able to beat Odin narrowly, but if you were to put it up against Neptune, I do not think it would stand a chance. Wyvern would probably have a good chance beating it, too.