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+---- Thread: Hasbro The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic (/Thread-Hasbro-The-unbanning-of-the-turbo-exclusives-in-burst-classic)
The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - bladekid - Sep. 15, 2019
So, I'm opening this thread to talk about the potential unbanning of the Hasbro Turbo exclusive beys. This is mostly meant for ~Mana~ because He's the main person I'm making this argument for as he seems to be against the unbanning of these layers. And yes, I posted this on the Hasbro classic testing thread, but it seems appropriate for it's own thread. Ok, so I did a bunch of tests on the Hasbro exclusive turbo beys. Personally, I'm currently advocating for the turbo exclusives to be legal in the Beyblade Burst classic format. I think that the first wave of turbo (maybe besides L4 because of left spins) and the turbo exclusives. Something I suggest if testing the new turbo exclusives before allowing them in classic like I'm pretty sure some card games to just to avoid ruining the balance. If some of them are too strong, that's fine. The vast majority or the turbo exclusives are on par with the classic stuff so just like with L2 and D2, a couple of the Turbo exclusives may be too strong so by all means, you should keep them banned, but don't keep all of them locked up. Its now harder than ever to get strong parts for turbo with the advance of the products so this just seems like a logical step to help more and more people get into classic. So many kids have turbo now while a lot of kids don't really have viable classic stuff. And I know this breaks the "Classic" motif, who cares? In my personal opinion, it should be for beys that are on the same strength level or meta as the dual and single layers. Also, with the inclusion of the dash drivers, I think it's finally time to unban J2. KJ rules has done testing (and I can do testing) that shows it really isn't even that good for burst defense, and the KO defense isn't really there either. Thank you for reading my essay on my side of this debate, but to sum it all up, the turbo exclusives should be allowed in classic and I have the proof and tests right here, enjoy!
Test 1:
O4.K.X VS U.H.U (ties redone, U launched first, O4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
O4 Win rate: 30% (OS: 0, KO: 1, BST: 2)
U1 Win rate: 70% (OS: 2, KO: 1, BST: 4)
Ties: 3
Test 2:
O4.A.W VS U.K.O (ties redone, U launched first, O4 hard launched, 10 battles)
O4 Win rate: 10% (OS: 0, KO: 0, BST: 1)
U1 Win rate: 90% (OS: 3, KO: 0, BST: 6)
Ties: 0
Test 3:
O4.G.Z VS Y2.H.O (ties redone, U launched first, O4 hard launched, 10 battles)
O4 Win rate: 10% (OS: 0, KO: 1, BST: 0)
Y2 Win rate: 90% (OS: 3, KO: 0, BST: 6)
Ties: 2
Test 1:
T4.H.U VS V2.K.X (ties redone, T4 launched first, V2 tilt launched, 10 battles)
T4 Win rate: 70% (OS: 3, KO: 0, BST: 4)
V2 Win rate: 30% (OS: 2, KO: 1, BST: 0)
Ties: 1
Test 2:
T4.K.O VS R.K.S (ties redone, alternating launches, R hard launched, 10 battles)
T4 Win rate: 80% (OS: 6, KO: 0, BST: 2)
R1 Win rate: 20% (OS: 2, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Ties: 0
Test 3:
T4.K.O VS Y.K.O (ties redone, alternating launches, 10 battles)
T4 Win rate: 60% (OS: 4, KO: 0, BST: 2)
Y1 Win rate: 40% (OS: 4, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Ties: 0
Test 1:
C4.H.U VS V2.K.X (ties redone, C4 launched first, V2 tilt launched, 10 battles)
C4 Win rate: 0% (OS: 3, KO: 0, BST: 3)
V2 Win rate: 0% (OS: 0, KO: 1, BST: 4)
Ties: 1
Test 2:
C4.K.O VS Y.K.O (ties redone, alternating launches, 10 battles)
C4 Win rate: 20% (OS: 2, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Y1 Win rate: 80% (OS: 8, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Ties: 1
Test 3:
C4.K.O VS Y.K.O (ties redone, alternating launches, 10 battles)
C4 Win rate: 60% (OS: 0, KO: 1, BST: 5)
Y1 Win rate: 40% (OS: 3, KO: 0, BST: 1)
Ties: 0
Test 1:
D4.K.X VS G2.H.O (ties redone, D4 launched first, D4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
D4 Win rate: 30% (OS: 1, KO: 2, BST: 0)
G2 Win rate: 70% (OS: 6, KO: 0, BST: 1)
Ties: 0
Test 2:
D4.K.U VS V2.H.O (ties redone, V2 launched first, V2 tilt launched, 10 battles)
D4 Win rate: 60% (OS: 0, KO: 0, BST: 0)
G2 Win rate: 40% (OS: 0, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Ties: 0
Test 3:
D4.K.O VS Y.K.O (ties redone, alternating launches, 10 battles)
D4 Win rate: 50% (OS: 5, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Y1 Win rate: 50% (OS: 5, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Ties: 3
Test 1:
S4.K.X VS G2.H.O (ties redone, S4 launched first, S4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
S4 Win rate: 0% (OS: 0, KO: 0, BST: 0)
G2 Win rate: 100% (OS: 9, KO: 1, BST: 0)
Ties: 0
Test 2:
S4.H.O VS R.H.S (ties redone, alternating launches, 10 battles)
S4 Win rate: 10% (OS: 1, KO: 0, BST: 0)
R1 Win rate: 90% (OS: 8, KO: 0, BST: 1)
Ties: 1
Test 3:
S4.H.U VS V2.K.X (ties redone, V2 launched first, V2 tilt launched, 10 battles)
S4 Win rate: 0% (OS: 0, KO: 0, BST: 0)
V2 Win rate: 100% (OS: 6, KO: 3, BST: 1)
Ties: 0
Test 4:
S4.G.Z VS T2.K.O (ties redone, S4 launched first, S4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
S4 Win rate: 50% (OS: 0, KO: 2, BST: 3)
T2 Win rate: 50% (OS: 3, KO: 1, BST: 1)
Ties: 0
Test 1:
K4.D.Out VS V2.G.X (ties redone, V2 launched first, V2 tilt launched, 10 battles)
K4 Win rate: 20% (OS: 2, KO: 0, BST: 0)
V2 Win rate: 80% (OS: 0, KO: 3, BST: 5)
Ties: 0
Test 2:
K4.K.O VS Y.K.O (ties redone, alternating launches, 10 battles)
K4 Win rate: 0% (OS: 0, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Y1 Win rate: 100% (OS: 10, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Ties: 1
Test 3:
K4.K.U VS V2.K.X (ties redone, V2 launched first, V2 tilt launched, 10 battles)
K4 Win rate: 30% (OS: 3, KO: 0, BST: 0)
V2 Win rate: 70% (OS: 0, KO: 2, BST: 5)
Ties: 0
Test 1:
B4.G.Hn-S VS G2.H.U (ties redone, G2 launched first, B4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
B4 Win rate: 10% (OS: 0, KO: 1, BST: 0)
G2 Win rate: 90% (OS: 2, KO: 0, BST: 7)
Ties: 1
Test 2:
B4.G.Hn-S VS G2.H.O (ties redone, G2 launched first, B4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
B4 Win rate: 10% (OS: 0, KO: 1, BST: 0)
G2 Win rate: 90% (OS: 4, KO: 0, BST: 5)
Ties: 1
Test 3:
B4.G.Ir VS G2.H.O (ties redone, G2 launched first, B4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
B4 Win rate: 60% (OS: 0, KO: 6, BST: 0)
G2 Win rate: 40% (OS: 1, KO: 0, BST: 3)
Ties: 1
Test 4:
B4.H.S VS N.G.O (ties redone, alternating launches, B4 hard launched, 10 battles)
B4 Win rate: 70% (OS: 5, KO: 0, BST: 2)
N1 Win rate: 30% (OS: 3, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Ties: 0
Test 5:
B4.G.Ir VS N.G.O (ties redone, N launched first, B4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
B4 Win rate: 70% (OS: 0, KO: 1, BST: 6)
N1 Win rate: 30% (OS: 3, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Ties: 1
Test 6:
B4.G.Ir VS N.G.O (ties redone, N launched first, B4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
B4 Win rate: 70% (OS: 0, KO: 1, BST: 6)
N1 Win rate: 30% (OS: 3, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Ties: 1
Test 1:
G4.K.Ir VS G2.G.O (ties redone, G2 launched first, G4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
G4 Win rate: 20% (OS: 1, KO: 1, BST: 0)
G2 Win rate: 80% (OS: 6, KO: 0, BST: 2)
Ties: 2
Test 2:
G4.H.O VS S2.G.Ir (ties redone, G4 launched first, S4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
G4 Win rate: 40% (OS: 4, KO: 0, BST: 0)
S2 Win rate: 60% (OS: 0, KO: 3, BST: 3)
Ties: 1
Test 3:
G4.H.U VS V2.K.X (ties redone, G4 launched first, V2 tilt launched, 10 battles)
G4 Win rate: 70% (OS: 5, KO: 0, BST: 2)
V2 Win rate: 30% (OS: 0, KO: 3, BST: 0)
Ties: 4
Test 4:
G4.H.U VS B4.H.Hn-S (ties redone, G4 launched first, B4 tilt launched, 10 battles)
G4 Win rate: 100% (OS: 4, KO: 0, BST: 6)
B4 Win rate: 0% (OS: 0, KO: 0, BST: 0)
Ties: 2
As you can see, these beys are good, but definitely manageable and they give newer players a chance To get into, in my opinion, the best burst format on the WBO and it also gives them a chance to have good parts. Thanks for reading, I hope you consider this.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - Ash_Ketchum_007 - Sep. 15, 2019
(Sep. 15, 2019 5:54 AM)bladekid Wrote:Spoiler (Click to View)
I don't think their performance is the reason why they're not included. I think it's the fact that they are slingshock exclusives and not called dual layer exclusives. Wasn't that also the reason why gV3, kS3, guardian kerbeus were banned despite being on the same performance level as dual layers (guardian kerbeus is arguable though as I think it has some good stamina for a god layer)? Not like I will ever attend burst tournaments, at least for the next 4-5 years (press F to pay respects), but I would like to see them be allowed as they do look like dual layers and if I wasn't aware of the names, I think I might not be able to differentiate between most dual and slingshock exclusive layers.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - bladekid - Sep. 15, 2019
(Sep. 15, 2019 2:31 PM)Ash_Ketchum_007 Wrote:(Sep. 15, 2019 5:54 AM)bladekid Wrote:Spoiler (Click to View)
I don't think their performance is the reason why they're not included. I think it's the fact that they are slingshock exclusives and not called dual layer exclusives. Wasn't that also the reason why gV3, kS3, guardian kerbeus were banned despite being on the same performance level as dual layers (guardian kerbeus is arguable though as I think it has some good stamina for a god layer)? Not like I will ever attend burst tournaments, at least for the next 4-5 years (press F to pay respects), but I would like to see them be allowed as they do look like dual layers and if I wasn't aware of the names, I think I might not be able to differentiate between most dual and slingshock exclusive layers.
I know, but that's a thinly veiled argument in the first place. That's probably the main thing about it that's keeping them banned, but personally, I find that using the name classic as an excuse for not including other similarly powerful layers, is very lame. Not to mention, if they wanted to keep the "classic" motif, why are the newer drivers allowed? I know you're on my side, But these are just some additional points to bring up.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - Ash_Ketchum_007 - Sep. 15, 2019
(Sep. 15, 2019 2:47 PM)bladekid Wrote:(Sep. 15, 2019 2:31 PM)Ash_Ketchum_007 Wrote: I don't think their performance is the reason why they're not included. I think it's the fact that they are slingshock exclusives and not called dual layer exclusives. Wasn't that also the reason why gV3, kS3, guardian kerbeus were banned despite being on the same performance level as dual layers (guardian kerbeus is arguable though as I think it has some good stamina for a god layer)? Not like I will ever attend burst tournaments, at least for the next 4-5 years (press F to pay respects), but I would like to see them be allowed as they do look like dual layers and if I wasn't aware of the names, I think I might not be able to differentiate between most dual and slingshock exclusive layers.
I know, but that's a thinly veiled argument in the first place. That's probably the main thing about it that's keeping them banned, but personally, I find that using the name classic as an excuse for not including other similarly powerful layers, is very lame. Not to mention, if they wanted to keep the "classic" motif, why are the newer drivers allowed? I know you're on my side, But these are just some additional points to bring up.
I did wonder about the point about drivers too when I had first known about the rule set for classic too. But, I guess they had to make something new instead of just replaying the old dual layer era stuff. And, drivers (especially drivers, more than even layers, disks and frames) IMO have unique designs and mechanics. Like, it is somewhat hard for me to even find drivers that are similar to each other within a short time. Still, I still do support your point on slingshock exclusives.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - ~Mana~ - Sep. 15, 2019
The Layer and Disk restriction keeps the Classic theme going, and provides a place for those older parts to actually see use and thrive. You are likely never going to use any of those in Standard. Modern Drivers are permitted because it helps to keep the format fresh, without making any massive changes to a format that is designed to emulate that of years gone. Plus, a large number of those older Drivers have been eternally viable so it's not like they need a place to thrive anyway. I'd argue the Driver department is the most balanced area in Classic anyway, even with these modern Drivers included; there's a huge selection of viable parts, and even new stuff makes a splash and mixes up the game slightly (Bullet being a big recent one).
I also do think it adds a much larger layer of confusion onto the format. Right now, I'd say it's easy to understand what is permitted in terms of Layers and Disks; stuff released as part of the Dual Layer System and earlier. For the most part, this is easily distinguishable by how abbreviations have worked; A2, B2, C2 etc, so many know at a glance what is likely legal. Once you start throwing new stuff in (O4, S4 etc), it's not as simple or easily recognisable, and it's going to require a constant reference to a list of permitted parts for many players. Same reason why God Layers were outright removed towards the end of development; why overcomplicate things for the need of a few Layers?
God, Switchstrike and Slingshock stuff are something to consider in a Burst Limited format, which I'd imagine we'll start an Experimental phase for in early January similar to our Classic roadmap. And I'd like to emphasise once again that not every part will ever be viable. Even in a Classic format, there are a very large number of parts that still cannot be viable. In any given format, this will always be an unfortunate case.
I understand the accessibility point, and it's been a point of discussion in the past. While it's a bit of an issue, I'd also draw paralells in this area to hosting Plastics, MFB or Zero-G formats; they aren't particularly accessible to everyone and require some purchases to get started. Does that mean they're an issue? No, it just means there's an obstacle to entry, and the format leans towards maybe being more of a hardcore format these days. Classic is similar to that, albeit I'd argue that the obstacle to entry is much lower as these products are newer, and many are indeed still available in the form of Hasbro's original releases. I hope (and am confident) that a Limited format will be far more accessible for everyone.
In regards to J2; it's unban has been previously discussed, so I'll bring up the discussion again internally to see if we can make a decision on it and push it out in this month's ruling update.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - bladekid - Sep. 16, 2019
(Sep. 15, 2019 5:39 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: The Layer and Disk restriction keeps the Classic theme going, and provides a place for those older parts to actually see use and thrive. You are likely never going to use any of those in Standard. Modern Drivers are permitted because it helps to keep the format fresh, without making any massive changes to a format that is designed to emulate that of years gone. Plus, a large number of those older Drivers have been eternally viable so it's not like they need a place to thrive anyway. I'd argue the Driver department is the most balanced area in Classic anyway, even with these modern Drivers included; there's a huge selection of viable parts, and even new stuff makes a splash and mixes up the game slightly (Bullet being a big recent one).
I also do think it adds a much larger layer of confusion onto the format. Right now, I'd say it's easy to understand what is permitted in terms of Layers and Disks; stuff released as part of the Dual Layer System and earlier. For the most part, this is easily distinguishable by how abbreviations have worked; A2, B2, C2 etc, so many know at a glance what is likely legal. Once you start throwing new stuff in (O4, S4 etc), it's not as simple or easily recognisable, and it's going to require a constant reference to a list of permitted parts for many players. Same reason why God Layers were outright removed towards the end of development; why overcomplicate things for the need of a few Layers?
God, Switchstrike and Slingshock stuff are something to consider in a Burst Limited format, which I'd imagine we'll start an Experimental phase for in early January similar to our Classic roadmap. And I'd like to emphasise once again that not every part will ever be viable. Even in a Classic format, there are a very large number of parts that still cannot be viable. In any given format, this will always be an unfortunate case.
I understand the accessibility point, and it's been a point of discussion in the past. While it's a bit of an issue, I'd also draw paralells in this area to hosting Plastics, MFB or Zero-G formats; they aren't particularly accessible to everyone and require some purchases to get started. Does that mean they're an issue? No, it just means there's an obstacle to entry, and the format leans towards maybe being more of a hardcore format these days. Classic is similar to that, albeit I'd argue that the obstacle to entry is much lower as these products are newer, and many are indeed still available in the form of Hasbro's original releases. I hope (and am confident) that a Limited format will be far more accessible for everyone.
In regards to J2; it's unban has been previously discussed, so I'll bring up the discussion again internally to see if we can make a decision on it and push it out in this month's ruling update.
First off, I thoroughly disagree that the classic format is only for the older layers. Just like limited, it's stuff on the same power level as the classic stuff. I think it's called classic to distinguish it from the upcoming limited format, centered around things on the same level as god layers. Classic is a limited format, but the name classic just implies that the meta is centered on things in the dual layer era. By saying that the new drivers should be allowed, but not newer layers that fit that strength is hypocritical. Not to mention things like wolborg and the Hasbro exclusive beys currently allowed. Wolborg came out in the choZ series and the exclusives came out in evolution, so I don't see that as any different from the turbo exclusives as they are just dual layers with metallic paint. And with the naming scheme (A2, B2, and C2) that you mentioned, everything from turbo is out by that logic. Goodbye blizzard X Gaianon G4, Lava X Anubion A4, gold X Betromoth B4 and so on. Obviously, I'm just playing devil's advocate here (if that's the right term) and I'm using stuff like wolborg, the drivers and the element X beys as an example. For me it's the same deal with the turbo exclusives. Most people that I've asked have said they are basically just glorified dual layers and even some just thought that before I even brought it up. Plus I was around when the god layers were in classic, and there wasn't that much more confusion then there is now. You still have people that don't know how to identify a dual layer versus a god or turbo layer, you still have people not knowing what's banned and what's not. So in my opinion, it wouldn't be that much more confusing to people. Plus if a person is confused, just have the judge tell them if their combo is legal or not, simple as that. Plus, I'm pretty certain that most competitive players won't have a problem knowing and remembering what is banned and what isnt, and if not, I'm pretty sure having a ban list at tournaments is just kinda standard procedure.
You also mentioned how "not every bey will be viable" which I agree with you, just not in this case. Its like you have two baseball teams, and there are some kids who are too young to be in the major leagues, so they try to join the little leagues, but are turned down, and the coach says "hey, not everyone can be a good player". These kids could be really good in little league, but since they aren't allowed to play in an equal environment, they won't be able to be used by a team. This analogy describes the situation as the turbo exclusives have a very solid chance at viability, but since you won't let them in to classic, no one is ever going to use them in serious play. And Mana, you know as well as I do no turbo exclusives are going to be even half decent in limited since they are literally dual layers.
I'm glad to that you agree about the accessibility, but then you compared it to the barely played MFB and plastic formats. The difference between those and burst classic is that burst classic is played pretty regularly. Having less accessibility for MFB is completely fine because it's rarely played and usually only by the more competitive bladers, but with classic, you need viable parts (which a lot of players can't get right now) because classic is played pretty frequently so not having good stuff means missing out on a lot of tournaments and the BR that comes with it. I know some bladers like thug testing for example that can't really play classic because of lack of viable parts. And yes, I guess you could say that getting parts is easier than getting stuff for MFB, but not that much easier imo, especially with mostly not having a lot of those good layers in stores anymore.
And just to bring it up, I never mentioned disks in my original post. I think the disk list is fine at the moment even though they're arguably harder to find now then classic layers. Also good stuff with the J2, I just hope you consider the same with the turbo exclusives (and I forgot to mention the 3 wave 1 slingshock beys that should be unbanned V4, A4, and F4) and realize why I think you're wrong about their inclusion in the classic meta. Thanks for reading!
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - boogerman24 - Oct. 03, 2019
The fact that they are Hasbro Exclusive makes the majority (Japan and Other Eastern Countries), at a "Disadvantage" due to the parts of those Beyblades in general. The Drivers in the Sling-shock like HAVE been proven useful at some points.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - Flame~Capricorn - Oct. 03, 2019
(Oct. 03, 2019 12:03 PM)boogerman24 Wrote: The fact that they are Hasbro Exclusive makes the majority (Japan and Other Eastern Countries), at a "Disadvantage" due to the parts of those Beyblades in general. The Drivers in the Sling-shock like HAVE been proven useful at some points.
If what you say holds true, then the Eastern countries would have the advantage in burst standard, yet they don't have any sort of advantage because of their location. While it is true that they can obtain the parts easier and for less, those same parts aren't out of the price range of many bladers in the west. Parts will always be subject to availability, so that shouldn't determine legality unless the parts are both incredibly powerful and extremely difficult to obtain. Previous examples of this were the Level chips and the Outer disk.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - bladekid - Oct. 03, 2019
(Oct. 03, 2019 12:03 PM)boogerman24 Wrote: The fact that they are Hasbro Exclusive makes the majority (Japan and Other Eastern Countries), at a "Disadvantage" due to the parts of those Beyblades in general. The Drivers in the Sling-shock like HAVE been proven useful at some points.How does this even make sense? Its not going to put anyone at a disadvantage. If they don't have the Hasbro beys and live in Japan or something, they just won't use the beys. If they live in American or Canada, they can just buy them if they want. Plus you aren't going to have a problem competing even if you can't or don't want to get these beys.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - DeceasedCrab - Oct. 03, 2019
(Oct. 03, 2019 1:22 PM)bladekid Wrote:(Oct. 03, 2019 12:03 PM)boogerman24 Wrote: The fact that they are Hasbro Exclusive makes the majority (Japan and Other Eastern Countries), at a "Disadvantage" due to the parts of those Beyblades in general. The Drivers in the Sling-shock like HAVE been proven useful at some points.How does this even make sense? Its not going to put anyone at a disadvantage. If they don't have the Hasbro beys and live in Japan or something, they just won't use the beys. If they live in American or Canada, they can just buy them if they want. Plus you aren't going to have a problem competing even if you can't or don't want to get these beys.
It doesn't make sense. It's a terrible argument. Many US bladers can't use online ordering, can't get TT beys, and have to use the mostly substandard Hasbro equivalents. That condition already exists but the only ones at a disadvantage are those in Hasbro vending countries.
Given how few WBO tournaments take place in countries where TT is readily available over Hasbro, this might be the weakest argument ever.
If bladers in east Asian countries yearn for the Hasbro exclusive Slingshock layers, they can order them on eBay like the rest of us do for TT layers.
This argument has no bearing on whether or not Slingshock exclusive layers should be allowed in Burst Classic.
That said, I'm still against allowing Slingshock exclusives in Classic because it will increase confusion. Most bladers aren't capable enough to read and understand the rules. Every exception you allow just leads to misunderstandings and complaints later. Even if allowing them was deemed fair, it would just lead to dozens of bladers convincing themselves somehow that Hasbro Forneus F4 was legal in Classic. They don't need any more help getting confused.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - bladekid - Oct. 03, 2019
(Oct. 03, 2019 2:43 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote:You mentioned an interesting point there. Sure, it may be a bit confusing, but as I said and so did you, people are already getting confused about it, so why does it matter if there are more parts? If kids are going to be confused regardless, even though that's mostly the newbies, is it so much worse to tell them a couple more are unbanned? Its pretty easy, if a kid has a bey that's not a turbo exclusive, just say that it's banned, not that hard imo. And even if it does make it harder, I think it's pure laziness to ban these combos over the "it's more confusing" argument. The solution is just to keep a ban list around, and while I know that may not work, it doesn't seem to work without adding these few beys.(Oct. 03, 2019 1:22 PM)bladekid Wrote: How does this even make sense? Its not going to put anyone at a disadvantage. If they don't have the Hasbro beys and live in Japan or something, they just won't use the beys. If they live in American or Canada, they can just buy them if they want. Plus you aren't going to have a problem competing even if you can't or don't want to get these beys.
It doesn't make sense. It's a terrible argument. Many US bladers can't use online ordering, can't get TT beys, and have to use the mostly substandard Hasbro equivalents. That condition already exists but the only ones at a disadvantage are those in Hasbro vending countries.
Given how few WBO tournaments take place in countries where TT is readily available over Hasbro, this might be the weakest argument ever.
If bladers in east Asian countries yearn for the Hasbro exclusive Slingshock layers, they can order them on eBay like the rest of us do for TT layers.
This argument has no bearing on whether or not Slingshock exclusive layers should be allowed in Burst Classic.
That said, I'm still against allowing Slingshock exclusives in Classic because it will increase confusion. Most bladers aren't capable enough to read and understand the rules. Every exception you allow just leads to misunderstandings and complaints later. Even if allowing them was deemed fair, it would just lead to dozens of bladers convincing themselves somehow that Hasbro Forneus F4 was legal in Classic. They don't need any more help getting confused.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - X-Wing - Oct. 04, 2019
Please do, it makes burst classic more accessible to people
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - boogerman24 - Oct. 04, 2019
(Oct. 03, 2019 12:43 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote:(Oct. 03, 2019 12:03 PM)boogerman24 Wrote: The fact that they are Hasbro Exclusive makes the majority (Japan and Other Eastern Countries), at a "Disadvantage" due to the parts of those Beyblades in general. The Drivers in the Sling-shock like HAVE been proven useful at some points.
If what you say holds true, then the Eastern countries would have the advantage in burst standard, yet they don't have any sort of advantage because of their location. While it is true that they can obtain the parts easier and for less, those same parts aren't out of the price range of many bladers in the west. Parts will always be subject to availability, so that shouldn't determine legality unless the parts are both incredibly powerful and extremely difficult to obtain. Previous examples of this were the Level chips and the Outer disk.
I do agree that the Eastern countries don't have much of an advantage. This reminds me about the WHOLE Hasbro Burst SERIES to be banned due to the teeth changes on the energy layers. The Differences might matter until the GT stuff comes out in the Eastern Areas. Also to mention that the Sling-shock Drivers would only work on HASBRO Energy Layers. Meaning that the parts would only work on said parts. IF there will be some kind of, "super-power," in the Hasbro Line, That means the Western Countries would have less accessibility for that strength. But then again Japan and the other Western Areas get the new stuff first. So there is no reason that these Drivers should be banned unless if there was a "god" among them. But even then you could ban JUST that Driver. I agree with the whole balance issues you were mentioning. If there is something that DOES become an issue a good ban could do the job.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - bladekid - Oct. 04, 2019
(Oct. 04, 2019 1:04 AM)boogerman24 Wrote:Yeah, and there are a couple of God's among those drivers, and they have banned them. Just like how the Hasbro Br is banned, as well as the TT Xt+ and both brands At's (including At-S).(Oct. 03, 2019 12:43 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote: If what you say holds true, then the Eastern countries would have the advantage in burst standard, yet they don't have any sort of advantage because of their location. While it is true that they can obtain the parts easier and for less, those same parts aren't out of the price range of many bladers in the west. Parts will always be subject to availability, so that shouldn't determine legality unless the parts are both incredibly powerful and extremely difficult to obtain. Previous examples of this were the Level chips and the Outer disk.
I do agree that the Eastern countries don't have much of an advantage. This reminds me about the WHOLE Hasbro Burst SERIES to be banned due to the teeth changes on the energy layers. The Differences might matter until the GT stuff comes out in the Eastern Areas. Also to mention that the Sling-shock Drivers would only work on HASBRO Energy Layers. Meaning that the parts would only work on said parts. IF there will be some kind of, "super-power," in the Hasbro Line, That means the Western Countries would have less accessibility for that strength. But then again Japan and the other Western Areas get the new stuff first. So there is no reason that these Drivers should be banned unless if there was a "god" among them. But even then you could ban JUST that Driver. I agree with the whole balance issues you were mentioning. If there is something that DOES become an issue a good ban could do the job.
(Oct. 04, 2019 12:45 AM)X-Wing Wrote: Please do, it makes burst classic more accessible to peopleIf only I could, I'm trying to convince ~Mana~ to change this. I think he's been busy, but he really needs to respond to my rebuttal so we can debate this. But yeah 100% agree with you.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - Hitashi - Oct. 04, 2019
Some people may not agree with me, but I think this idea is dumb. The testing shows that the layers lose to good Classic combos. If that's the case why would you add them. No one is going to use them unless they want to lose.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - DeceasedCrab - Oct. 04, 2019
(Oct. 04, 2019 1:49 PM)Hitashi Wrote: Some people may not agree with me, but I think this idea is dumb. The testing shows that the layers lose to good Classic combos. If that's the case why would you add them. No one is going to use them unless they want to lose.
Unfortunately, "the layers are bad, so it makes no sense to add them" and "the layers are bad, so why not add them" are both arguments used for and against adding them. And neither of them really have merit. It should be more along the lines of "the new layers have been thoroughly examined and determined to be almost identical in quality and manufacturing ideas to the Single and Dual layers, so they should be allowed.
People will use them simply because they make Burst Classic tournaments slightly more accessible, if the parts are more readily available. A lot of bladers just want to participate, whether or not they win, whether or not their parts are any good.
(Oct. 04, 2019 11:17 AM)bladekid Wrote:He doesn't need to do anything. You can request a response, but you are owed nothing.
If only I could, I'm trying to convince ~Mana~ to change this. I think he's been busy, but he really needs to respond to my rebuttal so we can debate this. But yeah 100% agree with you.
Until the committee does thorough testing on all the existing and new Turbo Exclusives, they're not going to permit it. Your testing is nice to have, but it's probably theirs that are going to matter.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - Dt20000 - Oct. 04, 2019
I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again:
Burst Classic does not need new parts. It is a Format for older parts. Adding new parts just because they are weaker, in my opinion, kinda ruins the point of a classic format. If we add in all the weak new parts, it basically becomes a second Burst Limited, and we don’t need a second Burst Limited.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - BoogietheBlader - Oct. 04, 2019
My fake beyblades lose to some of my single layers. We should allow fake beyblades!
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - Flame~Capricorn - Oct. 04, 2019
[quote="BoogietheBlader" pid='1549417' dateline='1570195864']
My fake beyblades lose to some of my single layers. We should allow fake beyblades!
This post is off topic. Fyi, fakes will never be allowed.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - Ash_Ketchum_007 - Oct. 04, 2019
(Oct. 04, 2019 2:39 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote: [quote="BoogietheBlader" pid='1549417' dateline='1570195864']
My fake beyblades lose to some of my single layers. We should allow fake beyblades!
This post is off topic. Fyi, fakes will never be allowed.
Pretty sure he was sarcastic.
(Oct. 04, 2019 2:13 PM)Dt20000 Wrote: I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again:
Burst Classic does not need new parts. It is a Format for older parts. Adding new parts just because they are weaker, in my opinion, kinda ruins the point of a classic format. If we add in all the weak new parts, it basically becomes a second Burst Limited, and we don’t need a second Burst Limited.
New drivers are allowed, aren't they (dash drivers especially)? These slingshock exclusives are practically dual layers in the name of slingshock (design, looks and performance-wise).
(Oct. 04, 2019 1:49 PM)Hitashi Wrote: Some people may not agree with me, but I think this idea is dumb. The testing shows that the layers lose to good Classic combos. If that's the case why would you add them. No one is going to use them unless they want to lose.
They do sometimes win, can't you see? He has tested the layers on usual disk+ driver combos. Can you ban S2 (TT)? It does have some (nothing top tier maybe) with rubber dash drivers. This, isn't really a test that everyone will see at first. But, these kinda unrecognized combos do work. Maybe there combos specifically for some, if not all, of these slingshock exclusives that can make them perform well.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - bladekid - Oct. 04, 2019
(Oct. 04, 2019 1:49 PM)Hitashi Wrote: Some people may not agree with me, but I think this idea is dumb. The testing shows that the layers lose to good Classic combos. If that's the case why would you add them. No one is going to use them unless they want to lose.That's not a good argument. Its like if G3 was still banned in standard because "it's not even good anymore so why unban it?" And I also think you misunderstood my testing: I used top tier beys to show how these beys have counters and aren't too OP, not that they're weak. These beys can compete perfectly fine and would be a very welcome addition.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - BoogietheBlader - Oct. 04, 2019
(Oct. 04, 2019 2:39 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote: [quote="BoogietheBlader" pid='1549417' dateline='1570195864']
My fake beyblades lose to some of my single layers. We should allow fake beyblades!
This post is off topic. Fyi, fakes will never be allowed.
It's a joke. An overexaggeration. Pretty much making fun of how silly this debate is.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - bladekid - Oct. 04, 2019
(Oct. 04, 2019 6:34 PM)BoogietheBlader Wrote:Yo, it's honestly not a silly debate. That's not my point, my point is that these beys in particular should be allowed in classic and I think it's wrong that there not.(Oct. 04, 2019 2:39 PM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote:(Oct. 04, 2019 2:31 PM)BoogietheBlader Wrote: My fake beyblades lose to some of my single layers. We should allow fake beyblades!
This post is off topic. Fyi, fakes will never be allowed.
It's a joke. An overexaggeration. Pretty much making fun of how silly this debate is.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - BoogietheBlader - Oct. 05, 2019
(Oct. 04, 2019 7:47 PM)bladekid Wrote: Yo, it's honestly not a silly debate. That's not my point, my point is that these beys in particular should be allowed in classic and I think it's wrong that there not.
Okay. So let me get this straight. You believe that because the Turbo exclusives are not as good that they should be unbanned, correct? Well I'm saying that because fakes are not as good that they should be allowed. They're essentially the same argument.
RE: The unbanning of the turbo exclusives in burst classic - bladekid - Oct. 05, 2019
(Oct. 05, 2019 12:19 AM)BoogietheBlader Wrote:No, they should be banned because they are literally fakes! I hate to be mean, but this is the dumbest argument I have ever heard. I'm saying specifically the turbo exclusives should be allowed because they are just new dual layers released and that the fact that they're not old should not effect whether they should be banned or not. legitimately saying "fakes should be unbanned because they aren't as good as the real beys" is such a bad argument to make, it's hard to even rebut. If you don't understand why fakes are banned and/or why I think the turbo exclusives should be unbanned, I don't have the ability to change your mind. Don't mean to be a jerk, but comparing the unjustly banned turbo exclusives to the very justly banned fakes is kinda insulting to me.(Oct. 04, 2019 7:47 PM)bladekid Wrote: Yo, it's honestly not a silly debate. That's not my point, my point is that these beys in particular should be allowed in classic and I think it's wrong that there not.
Okay. So let me get this straight. You believe that because the Turbo exclusives are not as good that they should be unbanned, correct? Well I'm saying that because fakes are not as good that they should be allowed. They're essentially the same argument.