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Hey again, all three people interested in HMS. I've created a revised tier list of HMS parts since the last one is a bit out of date, I'd like feedback on from anyone willing to contribute. Here is the list followed by explanations/justifications. I'm open to any and all feedback, preferably testing included in PM or in the post, or to be requested of me.

Attack
Samurai Upper (Right spin greatly preferred, Left spin acceptable)
Setups: CWD Defense Ring/CWD Free Defense Ring/Circle Wide + Grip Flat Core (UV)/Grip Flat Core/Metal Weight Core/Metal Flat Core

Circle Upper (Right spin greatly preferred, Left spin acceptable. Mold 2 preferred)
Setups: CWD Defense Ring/CWD Free Defense Ring/Circle Wide + Grip Flat Core (UV)/Grip Flat Core/Metal Weight Core/Metal Flat Core

Advance Attacker (Right spin and Left spin both work well)
Setups: CWD Defense Ring/CWD Free Defense Ring/Circle Wide + Grip Flat Core (UV)/Grip Flat  Core/Metal Weight Core

Jiraiya Blade (Right spin and Left spin both work well)
Setups: CWD Free Defense Ring/CWD Defense Ring/Circle Heavy/Circle Wide + Grip Flat Core (UV)/Grip Flat Core

Metal Upper (Right spin greatly preferred)
Setups: CWD Free Defense Ring/CWD Defense Ring/Circle Wide/Circle Heavy + Grip Flat Core (UV)/Grip Flat Core


Defense
Samurai Upper (Left spin and Right spin are both acceptable, though Left typically isn’t as explosive)
Setups: CWD Reverse Defenser/CWD God Ring/CWD Defense Ring + Bearing Core 2 (Passive)

Circle Upper (Mold 2 preferred, Left spin and Right spin are both acceptable, though Left typically isn’t as explosive)
Setups: CWD Reverse Defenser/CWD God Ring/CWD Defense Ring + Bearing Core 2 (Passive)

Metal Ape (Left spin and right spin both acceptable)
Setups: CWD Reverse Defenser/CWD God Ring/CWD Defense Ring + Bearing Core 2


Survival
Circle Upper (both mold 1 and mold 2 are good)
Setups: Circle Wide/CWD Reverse Defenser/CWD God Ring + Bearing Core

Metal Ape
Setups: Circle Wide/CWD Reverse Defenser/CWD God Ring + Bearing Core

Wolf Crusher
Setups: Circle Wide/CWD Reverse Defenser/CWD God Ring + Bearing Core

Advance Survivor
Setups: Circle Wide/CWD Reverse Defenser/CWD God Ring + Bearing Core


Balance
Samurai Upper
Setups: CWD Defense Ring/CWD God Ring/CWD Reverse Defenser + Bearing Core 2 (Aggressive)

Circle Upper (Mold 2 preferred)
Setups: CWD Defense Ring/CWD God Ring/CWD Reverse Defenser + Bearing Core 2 (Aggressive)


Despite being on life support, I thought it would be best to have the most accurate Heavy Metal System Competitive Combination List possible thus far. The previous list wasn't inherently bad, just didn't take into consideration a lot of varying parts or customization options, or overestimated certain parts' capability. It was also a bit antiquated in general. HMS has been around so long yet its testing was not incredibly well-documented or preserved. Outside of early Beywiki articles, gathering concrete knowledge was mostly through word of mouth or general anecdotal "impressions" from people who had expensive or rare parts still. My experience hasn't invalidated those experiences, but expanded upon them for this list.


I believe this lack of interest outside of myself and a few others, in large part is due to the fact that Bearing Core and Circle/Samurai Upper are versatile enough to make other RC/AR options feel irrelevant and not worth looking into, resulting in the full potential of some parts going largely unnoticed.  
Regardless, since I have the majority of the parts, I decided to take a critical look at each to gauge their overall usability, and then decided how they stacked up against the already established "good" combos. Threads with some of the more important testing I did can be found in this sub-forum. This list will be a reflection of that, and highlight only the most consistent or worthwhile parts for each type. This isn't to say anything not on the list isn't worthwhile to buy or use, but they are certainly not as consistent to win with in a competitive environment compared to what you find below.


Compared to plastics, HMS is incredibly simple. The breakdown of types is the following: Attack, Defense, Survival, and Balance. 
Attack will no longer feature an "Upper" section, as legitimate Upper Attack experienced in Plastics is not nearly as prevalent in a metal-on-metal battle. What is more commonly experienced when people describe "Upper Attack" in HMS, or MFB for that matter, is Up-Smash. Smash Attack in an upward direction, where one Beyblade sends the other out of the stadium in an upward trajectory. A minute detail, but much, much different than Upper Attack where a Beyblade would be taken up the ramp of the opponent's AR, and lifted up and over. It isn't impossible to have Upper Attack given the right ARs or right circumstances, but it isn't a legitimate sub-category of Attacker, with parts that exclusively (and consistently!) produce Upper Attack.


I've also changed the layout. Listing out all the possible parts individually implies that they can all be used interchangeably. Some parts perform noticeably worse in those vague setup options, so I've streamlined combo creation with ARs being the foundation, suitable WDs and RCs listed alongside it under “setups”. Order of appearance is directly related to optimality (First appearing WDs and RCs are best). Only the best are listed, certain things are deliberately left off because they simply aren't as good as the options already mentioned. This does not mean they are unusable, just suboptimal when considering every part released.


Attack Changes Justification: 
- Samurai Upper and Circle Upper are Attack staples, they can simply tear through anything on a Grip Flat Core UV. The lesser speed of either Grip Flat Core (original), Metal Weight Core, or Metal Flat Core hardly makes a difference in its ability to pelt things outside of the stadium. Metal Flat Core is a legitimate choice if you want a decently aggressive pattern but have the potential to out-spin certain opponents too, though it is risky as ring-outs are not uncommon since you have less grip onto the stadium.
- When choosing between the two, the difference is not a grand canyon gap. Mold 2 Circle Upper has the same thickness of its metal ramps, but is 1-2g’s lighter than Samurai Upper. This gram or two difference is not terribly important in practice, but the extra plastic around Samurai Upper does give it a slight advantage as it is a smidge more aggressive. I would consider them near equals, with a slight edge towards Samurai if we have to split hairs.
- Advance Attacker shows similar levels of power and consistency to Samurai and Circle Upper, even against Attack's most difficult matchups. With said, it isn't ideal on a Metal Flat Core, as it relies on the grip of rubber-based RC's to get big hits off and show what it's made of.
- Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper make the list because they perform marginally better against legitimate wall-style Defense types compared to literally every other HMS AR not listed already. Powerful alternatives that aren't quite as consistent, but deserve a spot. It should be noted that the Metal Weight Core and Metal Flat Cores are not listed for these two ARs as the loss in speed is a major blow to their KO power. It is highly recommended to stick to either of the Grip Flat Cores for best performance. 
- Free Defense Ring is listed as the first option for the last 2 ARs (Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper) because they turn the wall-styled Defense matchup on its head. Turning it from a complete losing matchup to actually fairly winnable. This is because the high-recoil of a Free Defense Ring can be that extra push needed when the contact they were making was almost exclusively AR-on-plastic. The former three ARs don’t have such a kryptonite, so I wouldn’t say the Free Defense Ring is as mandatory, but a welcome addition if you have it.


Defense Changes Justification:
- Samurai Upper and Circle Upper have both been kept here, yet also recategorized with certain stipulations later down on the list. Defense types are the style of Beyblade whose primary goal is to not be knocked out of the stadium. Given that Attackers are usually at a lower height thanks to their shorter and aggressive RC's, it is absolutely necessary for a defense type to rely on beefy CWDs to be the primary point of contact. Metal-on-metal contact is very risky, and should be avoided to give yourself the best chance of staying in play. With an aggressive Bearing Core 2 tip, these two ARs have the potential to be a completely different beast, bordering on Attack, but with longevity to OS opponents where Attackers would usually falter. So, Samurai Upper and Circle Upper can still be defense oriented Beyblades with a passive RC, but this wholly depends on the state of your Bearing Core 2. 
- Metal Ape's small size and good weight make it an incredible choice for Defense, as getting direct contact with it while using either CWDs listed is incredibly difficult for most Attackers. While for Samurai Upper, Circle Upper and Advance Attacker "Defense" is an abstract concept, for anything else Metal Ape + the two first CWDs on BC2 make for a nearly immovable object most of the time. This AR is the absolute best for this type of Defense combo. 
- CWD Defense Ring remains included, but it is a suboptimal choice when every HMS part is on the table, as it lacks the diameter or thickness to repel Smash Attacker's force effectively compared to more hard to come by CWDs. CWDs Reverse Defenser and CWD God Ring single-handedly make it so any Attack AR not on this list cannot do their job well, if at all. Defense Ring is not bad by any means, but it does give other less powerful Attack ARs a foot in the door they otherwise would not have.


Survival Changes Justification:
- Circle Upper in either mold is more than capable of beating other Survival types on KO power alone, while also consistently out-spinning the other types provided it is able to stay in the stadium. A staple due to its great shape and weight distribution, there is no doubt it is highly competitive on Bearing Core. Circle Upper is marginally preferred over Samurai Upper because of its more reserved plastic component, there are less protrusions, as well as being a gram or two lighter on average. Technically this makes it wiser to use in a Survival setup. Personally I wouldn’t consider Samurai Upper disqualified from use since it should perform similarly to Circle Upper, meaning it is still very good in relation to everything else.
- Metal Ape is capable of going toe-to-toe with every decent Survival AR on this list, and while it was long forgotten and relegated to the Island of Lost Compacts, it deserves a spot among these other Survival ARs.
- Wolf Crusher and Advance Survivor have long been staples in Survival for good reason, they don't have busy designs that could destabilize easily or get in the way of LAD, as well as good weight distribution giving them great survivability. 
- Advance Survivor suffers from crippling recoil that should be worked around by incorporating opposite spin and making sure the AR's protrusions are aligned in a way where contact is made with the soft edge instead of the sharp edge on the other side. It may also be wise to weak launch when certain of the opposite spin and clinch a win via equalizing.
- CWDs like Free Survivor are largely outclassed by God Ring and Reverse Defenser. The purpose of tagging on extra weight is to add to a Survival Beyblade's ability to stay in the stadium, and those two simply do it better without being a hindrance on spin-time, LAD or procession in any major way.


Balance Addition Justification:
- Easily the biggest change here, previously these combos were considered exclusively Defense types as they wouldn't be KO'd very easily. While they can be hard to budge, there is nuance regarding the state of Bearing Core 2 that determines which end of the spectrum this combo truly belongs in. With a properly worn Bearing Core 2 it is easy to get an aggressive pattern going, and with these two ARs, it makes for a very versatile combo. The reason this is important is because this aggressive movement allows for these two combos to: 1. Counteract the momentum Attackers have at the start of the match with their own, making them even harder to KO 2. Provide enough movement to compliment their already aggressive ARs to generate KOs on the other three types reliably on their own, 3. The combo’s aggressiveness does not significantly detract from Bearing Core 2's innate survivability, meaning big wall hits can turn into out-spins quite easily on lighter combos, if not outright KOs. 
- These two combos have the potential to out-spin all other types as well as KO all other types, on top of already being a challenge for Attackers to KO in retaliation. This behaviour goes well beyond the scope of what it means to be a "Defense" type Beyblade, and because of this, they have been added to the Balance category as it fits them much better if you have an aggressive Bearing Core 2. If you wanted a one-stop-shop Beyblade that can potentially win against anything else in the HMS series (that doesn't rely on Grip Flat Core/UV), this is it.
Excellent list, and your conclusions generally reflect any I had when I was still playing with HMS - which does unfortunately leave me with little to add.

Personally I think this should replace the old thread as the stickied topic - it is much more useful with the new layout, and the descriptions help a lot with context. Not to mention the addition of things like Metal Ape (which has been criminally underrated) and the balance section, which both make a tonne of sense.
I've updated the list given I received few parts I was missing. Unfortunately, Smash Phoenix (Dranzer MF's AR) is far too recoily to be used for Stamina or Defense, and not powerful enough to be used for Attack. It isn't terrible, but doesn't do as well as anything else on this list. Dragoon MF's Random Booster CWD Eternal Survivor is on the list now, because it works similarly enough to CWD Free Defenser, though I prefer FD over it as it doesn't extend quite as far out as ES does, meaning the AR gets just a bit more touch while also getting added CWD power. Eternal Survivor is a fine alternative, though, I think. Might have been better if you could flip its orientation and still use it. Metal Upper and Jiraiya Blade do tend to struggle against bulky CWD match-ups, despite the improvement from adding their own chunky CWD into the equation. But it improvement is improvement. Samurai and Circle Upper can probably live without ES, though.
Ok, someone who has the part to answer my question! Does cwd eternal survivor work flipped with the advance attacker ar in force smash mode? Sorry for being a little off topic.
(May. 14, 2021  4:32 AM)Flame~Capricorn Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, someone who has the part to answer my question! Does cwd eternal survivor work flipped with the advance attacker ar in force smash mode? Sorry for being a little off topic.

Hello. If by ES flipped you mean the slopes pointing upwards (since downwards is default), no. ES flipped works with absolutely nothing I've tried, aside from something like swapping out SCMS' RC CWD, but in that set up you can work almost anything together, with two CWDs. ES is only realistically compatible with any AR when its slopes face downward.

Quick run down:
- ES down, Advance Attacker facing up (Upper mode) works, they align quite well together. This is the only combination that works of the two that works.
- ES down, Advance Attacker facing down (Force Smash mode) doesn't work. 
- ES up, Advance Attacker up doesn't work.
- ES up, Advance Attacker down doesn't work.

It is a fair enough question, thanks for asking.
Ok, thanks for checking.
Some changes I'd make:
Increase the Text Size, I can barely read the text and have to strain my eyes.
Create a sub-typing thing between Upper and Smash attack to clearly show the roles of the ARs
List Jiraiya Blade as Left Spin Preferred, as in Right Spin the main contact points are thin plastic which could lead to breakage issues
(May. 17, 2021  1:49 AM)RacingCheetahz Wrote: [ -> ]Some changes I'd make:
Increase the Text Size, I can barely read the text and have to strain my eyes.
Create a sub-typing thing between Upper and Smash attack to clearly show the roles of the ARs
List Jiraiya Blade as Left Spin Preferred, as in Right Spin the main contact points are thin plastic which could lead to breakage issues

Hey. yea the sizing changed for some reason after editing in a couple things. I fixed it.

Maybe since you're able to read it now you'll know why there is no sub-type for Attack, and I have not experienced any breakage issues at all in Right spin. Is this common for other people?
I haven't heard of it but I don't pay much attention to HMS

And, RacingCheetahz, HMS is mostly upward smash rather than upper attack due to the nature of metal on metal contact and the short contact time, but even if not, the combos would just be the exact same as the listings for circle and samurai upper anyway.
I've tested Eternal Survivor on Advance Striker since it aligns perfectly with the slopes. Sort of like a quarter moon (Advance Striker alone) vs. full moon (with Eternal Survivor lined up). It isn't a bad alternative, but it turns out this isn't actually the most powerful smash-wise. The CWD increases the size of the primary contact points, widening it vertically. The Advance Striker combo becomes less explosive, but it still KO's and can drag other beys along with it, and then out, sometimes. I would put this below other common CWDs, but it is still a fair enough addition as it adds weight, and is a general nuisance to CWD defenders that get hit lower than normal, destabilizing them sooner.
I would also add Slash Upper for Attack: it should perform in a range between Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper. Should also be specified that Advance Attacker gives the best results in Upper Mode.
(May. 23, 2021  4:10 PM)C a o S³ Wrote: [ -> ]I would also add Slash Upper for Attack: it should perform in a range between Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper. Should also be specified that Advance Attacker gives the best results in Upper Mode.

If it helps any, Dan posted some testing here: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-HMS-Att...-Revisited


By the way, it's cool to see you're still around, man Smile
(May. 23, 2021  4:17 PM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]
(May. 23, 2021  4:10 PM)C a o S³ Wrote: [ -> ]I would also add Slash Upper for Attack: it should perform in a range between Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper. Should also be specified that Advance Attacker gives the best results in Upper Mode.

If it helps any, Dan posted some testing here: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-HMS-Att...-Revisited
Thank you for notifying me the thread, I just read it and...yeah, it seems that we are more or less in the Jiraiya Blade range for Slash Upper. Quite shocking results for Metal Upper, honestly, it was definitely underrated in the past.

(May. 23, 2021  4:17 PM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]By the way, it's cool to see you're still around, man Smile
I can say the same for you! Smile
(May. 23, 2021  4:10 PM)C a o S³ Wrote: [ -> ]I would also add Slash Upper for Attack: it should perform in a range between Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper. Should also be specified that Advance Attacker gives the best results in Upper Mode.

Hey, I'm glad to see you're around!

I did a testing thread, but that actually doesn't tell the whole story either. In the thread, you'll notice that technically Slash Upper did comparably to both Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper. All three did horrendously, mind you, but my main take away was that Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper had considerable power, it was observably stronger than everything else not named Samurai/Circle Upper or Advance Attacker. But still, I couldn't really 'prove' it was better, they all just seems to be "decent" or mediocre even compared to the top three Attack ARs.

What I've left out, and only alluded to here, was testing I did later on. Because everything performed poorly, despite my high regard for these two ARs for seeming to be a cut above in terms of power, I was thinking my list was going to only include the top three to be most accurate. Then, I tested with Free Defense Ring, which you'll notice I've put as the first choice here for those two, and I think I talked about in my elaboration for each type. 
I tested everything again with Free Defense Ring, because it gave extra recoil from below against the thick CWD defenders, and that is where my previously observable (but not recorded) differential in power between these two ARs became even more apparent and actually quantifiable. 

With Free Defense Ring, both of these ARs shot up to hovering around 50% WR. For everything else, they stayed more or less the same. Slash was still basically inert, Upper Dragon and its Metal Frame brothers still not that great, etc. Only Metal Upper and Jiraiya Blade took that extra recoil and ran with it, improving their win rate substantially. Because of this, I decided to throw them onto the list as viable alternatives, in fact you can make the argument that even including the other generic CWDs may not be appropriate, since CWD Free Defense Ring is just that much better on these two. I just wanted to give people a chance since they may not have it, and these ARs are actually worth using if you want some variety.
(May. 23, 2021  5:24 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Hey, I'm glad to see you're around!
As I've already said to th!nk: I can say the same for you! :D

(May. 23, 2021  5:24 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]I did a testing thread, but that actually doesn't tell the whole story either. In the thread, you'll notice that technically Slash Upper did comparably to both Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper. All three did horrendously, mind you, but my main take away was that Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper had considerable power, it was observably stronger than everything else not named Samurai/Circle Upper or Advance Attacker. But still, I couldn't really 'prove' it was better, they all just seems to be "decent" or mediocre even compared to the top three Attack ARs.

What I've left out, and only alluded to here, was testing I did later on. Because everything performed poorly, despite my high regard for these two ARs for seeming to be a cut above in terms of power, I was thinking my list was going to only include the top three to be most accurate. Then, I tested with Free Defense Ring, which you'll notice I've put as the first choice here for those two, and I think I talked about in my elaboration for each type. 
I tested everything again with Free Defense Ring, because it gave extra recoil from below against the thick CWD defenders, and that is where my previously observable (but not recorded) differential in power between these two ARs became even more apparent and actually quantifiable. 

With Free Defense Ring, both of these ARs shot up to hovering around 50% WR. For everything else, they stayed more or less the same. Slash was still basically inert, Upper Dragon and its Metal Frame brothers still not that great, etc. Only Metal Upper and Jiraiya Blade took that extra recoil and ran with it, improving their win rate substantially. Because of this, I decided to throw them onto the list as viable alternatives, in fact you can make the argument that even including the other generic CWDs may not be appropriate, since CWD Free Defense Ring is just that much better on these two. I just wanted to give people a chance since they may not have it, and these ARs are actually worth using if you want some variety.
I see, they both deserve to be in the list. Slash Upper instead, from your test thread, given that Slash Riger is harder to get compared to Jiraiya MS and Driger MS seems more like a "use it if you don't own something more useful". Anyway I am not that convinced about the Eternal Survivor used as an alternative to the Free Defense Ring. I had some negative results in the past (maybe it could be a bit better when used in combination with Advance Attacker?) which led me to believe that it is not really worth using. At this point I would apply the same reasoning as Slash Upper. Have you had good results also with Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper? I am genuinely curious about its usage.
(May. 23, 2021  6:17 PM)C a o S³ Wrote: [ -> ]
(May. 23, 2021  5:24 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Hey, I'm glad to see you're around!
As I've already said to th!nk: I can say the same for you! :D

(May. 23, 2021  5:24 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]I did a testing thread, but that actually doesn't tell the whole story either. In the thread, you'll notice that technically Slash Upper did comparably to both Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper. All three did horrendously, mind you, but my main take away was that Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper had considerable power, it was observably stronger than everything else not named Samurai/Circle Upper or Advance Attacker. But still, I couldn't really 'prove' it was better, they all just seems to be "decent" or mediocre even compared to the top three Attack ARs.

What I've left out, and only alluded to here, was testing I did later on. Because everything performed poorly, despite my high regard for these two ARs for seeming to be a cut above in terms of power, I was thinking my list was going to only include the top three to be most accurate. Then, I tested with Free Defense Ring, which you'll notice I've put as the first choice here for those two, and I think I talked about in my elaboration for each type. 
I tested everything again with Free Defense Ring, because it gave extra recoil from below against the thick CWD defenders, and that is where my previously observable (but not recorded) differential in power between these two ARs became even more apparent and actually quantifiable. 

With Free Defense Ring, both of these ARs shot up to hovering around 50% WR. For everything else, they stayed more or less the same. Slash was still basically inert, Upper Dragon and its Metal Frame brothers still not that great, etc. Only Metal Upper and Jiraiya Blade took that extra recoil and ran with it, improving their win rate substantially. Because of this, I decided to throw them onto the list as viable alternatives, in fact you can make the argument that even including the other generic CWDs may not be appropriate, since CWD Free Defense Ring is just that much better on these two. I just wanted to give people a chance since they may not have it, and these ARs are actually worth using if you want some variety.
I see, they both deserve to be in the list. Slash Upper instead, from your test thread, given that Slash Riger is harder to get compared to Jiraiya MS and Driger MS seems more like a "use it if you don't own something more useful". Anyway I am not that convinced about the Eternal Survivor used as an alternative to the Free Defense Ring. I had some negative results in the past (maybe it could be a bit better when used in combination with Advance Attacker?) which led me to believe that it is not really worth using. At this point I would apply the same reasoning as Slash Upper. Have you had good results also with Jiraiya Blade and Metal Upper? I am genuinely curious about its usage.

Yea, you're right about that. It didn't stand out at all. Its BP is great, though.

Honestly, you're not the first person to bring that up. It is noticeably inferior to Free Defense Ring, but I put it on because it did at least a comparable job to it. Didn't have the same raw power, but it did at least tend to destabilize thick CWD defenders. Because it's now been two people saying that Eternal Survivor wasn't good to them, I'm just going to remove it from the list. I personally think it is "OK" as an alternative, but I don't want it on the list if others outright don't like it. Thank you for letting me know your experience with it!