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Hero

Jun. 25, 2011  8:31 AM
Totally agree with you th!nk. TH170 is amazing. You know when CH120 caused a stir with Lightning L Drago? TH170 will cause triple the amount. It needs more testing.

Nano

Jun. 25, 2011  8:35 AM
(Jun. 25, 2011  8:11 AM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]I've known this for ages. The best attack, stamina, and defence combo's use it. When given a sonokong release, expect th170 to cause a stir, though, it's EXTREMELY good, beat lynx is a must buy, IMO: arguably one of the best tracks ever, which happens to come with the stronges right spin attack wheel and a top tier, if common, tip, plus leopard print stickers for extra sex appeal, honestly, it's a must buy. It's just too pricey atm, but I don't mind, it's nice having access to an uncommon, powerful part... :p

Hot Wink

I got $10 for getting good grades the other day ^^. I want to go hunt for some new releases over here. This part of Oregon is so late when it comes to releases. Makes me want to cry T_T

Kei

Jun. 25, 2011  8:56 AM
Regarding BD145; I've been thinking for months now that it should be banned. Almost all top-tier customs, of all types use it:
  • MF-H Basalt Aquario BD145CS becomes an immovable tank due in large part to BD145; a heavy, giant plastic ring that extends well past the Metal Wheel.
  • MF Lightning L Drago BD145LRF's attack range is increased because of BD145, making it easier to hit it's target. BD145 also does a fine job of absorbing any hits that it takes from other Attackers.
  • Hell Kerbecs BD145CS annihilates all "traditional" Stamina types (ie. 85, 145 height, etc.).

They should have just called it "GR145" because it's essentially an upgraded, wider version of CWD God Ring from the HMS era. That, and it basically is a "god" part.

(Jun. 25, 2011  8:17 AM)RustyXD Wrote: [ -> ]i prefer TH170 over 230 Grin

Of course you do; TH170 made 230 irrelevant (at least, it will when TH170 is more widely available).

th!nk

Jun. 25, 2011  8:58 AM
D: Oh, lawd yes, TH170 > 230. Okay, so 220 is weaker against opposing attackers, but there are combo's where 190 will do better as it makes it harder to hit right.

Just been painting my LDD white. Might've gone a bit overboard, but I'll have it in shape before tourney time, for legality (ooh, if a perth tourney person is reading this, they'll know one of the beys I pla to use Gasp). Problem is the spraypaint is a bit thin, so it's leaving edges grey, but it DOES look kinda cool like that. I can touch it up with project paint if need be, but yeah.

Yes, I painted a bey I'm using in a tourney, I'm tired of the greyness.

And I cannot use LL2's, or the LL2L. But I have a lot of beylauncher-l's so meh.

: STRONGLY disagree, without BD145, 230 becomes problematic, and believe me, you'll want BD145 when TH170 gets a wider release. It's overpowered, but banning it would only mean it needed to be unbanned again in a couple of months, maybe even when Vari Ares is released.

At least hold off till Ares comes out (and preferably till more people get TH170), because I don't want to do another buttload of testing like I did for libra to get it unbanned Tongue_out

Yes, it's overpowered, but it's balancing a lot of wheels that DON'T use it, like Fang, Beat, and LDrago Destroy, without it, they become VERY dangerous.

Do agree on the God Ring analogy though Grin

Chups

Jun. 25, 2011  9:02 AM
TH170 raaaaaapppesss. Its so good. MF-H Basalt aquario TH170CS Man it's good. Versatility as well. Its awesome.

About the BD145 thing. Im not sure what to think....

th!nk

Jun. 25, 2011  9:05 AM
Yeah, CS is pretty dangerous with it, might even mess up my favourite combo right now. It uses TH170 too, so it'd come down to luck and correct height choice, methinks. Confused

I'm very much set in my opinion of BD145, it's like basalt was, it's arguably too powerful, but it is balancing things out (albeit too strongly), that'll run rampant without it.

FWIW, MF LLD BD145CS doesn't do much better than 50% against MF-H Basalt Aquario BD145CS, I believe we settled on in it's thread. So it does counter itself, and there are plenty of ways to abuse it. Again, TH170 is a great example. Chups combo, for example, smacks down on BD145'ers and forces scraping.

Plus, Hell dies without BD145, it's not far to take it away, at least in boost mode, IMO, though that's more me being sympathetic to a wheel.

That said, good to see you used CS on Hell Kerbecs instead of the traditional WD of our tier list, as WD has too much recoil IMO, I'm not sure about this (haven't bothered to test it), but I think even in a 1v1 with it's WD counterpart, CS would have a fair chance, as it wouldn't be easily KO'd. Must try this out. Something for my "testing list" Cute

Kei

Jun. 25, 2011  9:07 AM
(Jun. 25, 2011  8:58 AM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]: STRONGLY disagree, without BD145, 230 becomes problematic, and believe me, you'll want BD145 when TH170 gets a wider release. It's overpowered, but banning it would only mean it needed to be unbanned again in a couple of months, maybe even when Vari Ares is released.

At least hold off till Ares comes out (and preferably till more people get TH170), because I don't want to do another buttload of testing like I did for libra to get it unbanned Tongue_out

Yes, it's overpowered, but it's balancing a lot of wheels that DON'T use it, like Fang, Beat, and LDrago Destroy, without it, they become VERY dangerous.

230 becomes problematic? What are you talking about? It can be defeated easily with an Attack type (that doesn't use BD145).

Ah, I'm not saying banning BD145 is imminent or anything; this was just my personal opinion. The Committee hasn't really talked about it at all at this point.

What do you mean "balancing a lot of wheels that DON'T use it"? As I've said in the past many times though; I'd take an Attack-dominated metagame over a Stamina/Defense one any day.

Hero

Jun. 25, 2011  9:07 AM
Hmm. Let's say you had two identical combos using TH170. 170 vs. 220, in this case 170 would win right? The lower the better?

Kei

Jun. 25, 2011  9:11 AM
(Jun. 25, 2011  9:07 AM)Hero Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm. Let's say you had two identical combos using TH170. 170 vs. 220, in this case 170 would win right? The lower the better?

I'm not sure anyone has tested this yet (likely because not many people have two TH170's!). Would be interesting to know which would be the victor. Could be either of them, it's hard to say. I think 190 would definitely win against 220, though.

th!nk

Jun. 25, 2011  9:17 AM
: If they both use basalt, I forget if 220 sits above 170, if so, it'll smash down too hard, from memory of 230 vs 170 battles I've done. 195 is a far better option, it hits at just the right height, if both use basalt, to take out 230 (and I'd assume 220) with great reliability. If it sits just above you, you're in a lot more trouble, so the aim with TH170 is to be lower than your opponent without being under them.

: TH170 is probably a better point, then (though there are some newer 230 combo's that are worth looking into, that even MF LLD BD145LRF struggles with). At 170 and 195, it is MUCH harder to kill with an attacker (currently, MF LLD BD145LRF does passably against the combo's I've tested, but without BD145 it wouldn't be able to stay in, though I'd ant to test this carefully to be sure) and can also murder 230, in the right combo.

The wheels I'm referring to, well, mainly, are Beat, LDrago Destroy, and Gravity. I love attackers, and love an attack oriented metagame, but it'll be too imbalanced without BD145. Ldrago Destroy in particular is a huge threat. Without BD145, it's very hard to stop, and any possible Dual Spin defence combo's that are seeing some use will go out the window without BD145 protecting gravity.

Gravity becomes much more deadly without BD145. It can the use CH120MF instead of XF, because it equalises fine like that from what I tested before BD145 blew it away. MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) CH120MF is a bit TOO easy to use (it requires a bit of an awkward launch against MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS from memory, but other than that...). It can easily OS most opponents, and can manage against MF LLD CH120RF. It's not a safe choice there, but it manages. It's just a bit too easy IMO.

Sure, an attack-slanted metagame is nice, but I think it's fine the way it is, it's slightly attack slanted (and I expect Vari Ares to add to that), but it's not as twisted as it would be without BD145.

Hope that's not too long, I tried to avoid waffling.

Chups

Jun. 25, 2011  9:37 AM
Just from guessing 170 would beat 220. Just happens to me.

Beat 90R2F is AMAZING! No joke. Its really, really good. It destroys 230/220 just from pure Smash. It also doesn't have the flaw that the GB145 variant has. The flaw when it hit's once and it just stops. Might be my Uber perfect R2F but it Get's a Draw with MF Gravity Perseus (Stamina) BD145CS. otherwise it just KO'es it. I might make a thread but meh.

th!nk

Jun. 25, 2011  10:01 AM
Really? I thought that was found to be less than perfect for beat? Guess I shouldn't trust a single person testing. How's it do vs MF-H Basalt Aquario BD145CS?
And you're using a metal face, right?


I need to make a list of the experimentation I need to do tonight/tomorrow. I really should do this every day Uncertain
Basalt 230 vs 170/195.
Hell Kerbecs BD145WD vs Hell Kerbecs BD145CS
And maybe MF Beat ___ 90R2F
Sure I'm forgetting some things Confused

Chups

Jun. 25, 2011  10:11 AM
MF Beat Lynx 90R2F. Smile

th!nk

Jun. 25, 2011  10:12 AM
Excellynx. Hopefully I'll get time to play with it properly Grin

Chups

Jun. 25, 2011  10:16 AM
Once again my R2F is Godly so it may just be that?

th!nk

Jun. 25, 2011  10:20 AM
Egh, I'll let you know by PM once I've tried. First thing will be against Basalt 230CS if I do, so you should find out fo' sho'. My R2F isn't awesome always, but yeah, we shall see.

RustyXD

Jun. 25, 2011  10:21 AM
Well I no this is a bit late but I am against banning BD145 , I no that every major combo uses it but I think if It is banned that th170 would take over. Although IMO it Won't be as good as bd145 and like th!nk said LDD , Gravity and beat would make the metagame more attack irientated.

I will also test this combo.

Chups

Jun. 25, 2011  11:40 AM
Also I think at the Moment we have a Balanced meta-game. The only BD145 part I am up for banning is MF/MF-H Basalt Aquario/Bull/Kerbecs BD145__ That thing isn't unbeatable but very close to it. It is unmovable most of the time as well.

th!nk

Jun. 25, 2011  11:53 AM
Meh, I have little trouble with it. MF MLD CH120XF is well above 50, and there's one or two other combo's I'm withholding till my tourney (ooh secretive evil me). Tongue_out

BTW, looks like you're right about 90R2F It just smashed MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS out no problem, and can manage okay against Basalt BD145CS too, if you ace the launch.

Trying different CW's, too.

This is only a few rounds, though, so don't place too much importance on it/read too much into it

Well, tbh 145 height tracks would probably do better than this against 230, but other than that, it does do very well. Far better than the testing suggest IMO.

Shika blade

Jun. 25, 2011  12:06 PM
i disagree, without BD145 attack wil have a huge advantage.

Chups

Jun. 25, 2011  12:07 PM
I agree with 230 but in retrospect 230 isn't being played as much as it used to. But it can handle fine and IMO does better against Basalt BD145. Meh.

th!nk

Jun. 25, 2011  12:36 PM
Sup. Got something interesting for ya:

Hell Kerbecs BD145CS vs Hell Kerbecs BD145WD
Standard Conditions: BB10 Attack Stadium, WD launched first R1, alternate launches. Identical moldwise for hell and BD145, both are A1 (Wheel)/A4 (BD) and identical with holes/reinforcements, Kerbecs’s are identical, facebolts identical (down to the horuseus sticker and set). WD mint, CS plastic rounded, slightly aggressive (moves a little, not quickly). All combo’s launched as straight as possible.
Tips switched after 10 rounds, because I really want this to be accurate.
Beylauncher LR used (right spin). No grip as I launch steadier without one.

Obviously, both are in Boost Mode, and launched at 100%, dead straight.

Full Results (Click to View)

Win Rates
CS: 13/20 (12KO, 1OS) = 65%
WD: 7/20 (6KO, 1OS) = 35%

th!nks Notes (Click to View)

What do I think this means? Well, given we already know Hell Kerbecs BD145CS beats other stamina combo’s by OS or KO, and does passably against attack, as a bonus: In my opinion, CS should be at least listed as an option for Hell Kerbecs on our top tier list.

Frankly, I think Hell BD145 should also be a defence option (or, give us a balance list, for (MF) Hell Kerbecs BD145CS, MF-H Hell Kerbecs 230CS and MF-H Basalt Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario 230CS). It does better than earth defensively, if I recall from the testing.

Further testing can be found around the forum, I’d suggest you look around, as I don't have time to baby anyone Tongue_out

RustyXD

Jun. 25, 2011  12:42 PM
Wow that's nice results i actually expected such a thing , i will test when i have time Grin

th!nk

Jun. 25, 2011  12:45 PM
You already did, over in the MF-L version's thread, but with a banking shot and MF-L. You got identical results, lol.

RustyXD

Jun. 25, 2011  12:50 PM
wow i actually did , well i will help you get this recognized as top tier , as this has to be one of my favorite combos , wish i had another CS though it would make testing better but i can test beat , fang and all that Grin

About hell being a defense wheel i am not too sure about it being worthy for top tier-ness but as you said I think it should be on a balance list.
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