So, the main issue is about the drivers & performance tips. Hasbeys have slopes, while TTs have teeth and that's nothing new. But, i think Hasbro purposely nerfed the springs in performance tips. The best example i can bring is the following combo: V1/Heavy/Xtreme. At the beginning, it was VERY, VEEEERY tight, about two weeks later it became LOOSE (only used 3-4 times!!!!). The few layers that didn't lose all tighteness (but still not tight as before) are lS3, gV3 and V2, on the other hand Roktavor, Valtryek, Xcalius and many others can be twisted without a problem. Now, my statement can be explained in this way (absolutely a personal opinion): slopes look like new even after a long period of time, while teeth can break and wear down much faster, so Hasbro produced disposable pt in order to balance that difference. What you guys think?
So your question is less TT vs Hasbro and more: Did Hasbro produce higher-quality slopes than intended and then purposely wreck the performance tips because they want people to buy more?
First off, unless you actually work at the company or have some form of connections, no one can make any attempt to claim to know the answer.
Second, I think my answer is going to be no. If Hasbro plans like that, then TT has a goal of wrecking people's beys with 12 to make people buy more, since it repeatably releases it without fixing it. No, it's just poor design decisions.
Hi Fox! So, is it just a matter of bad springs iyho?
Update: no, no! I didn't mean to say that Hasbro found out slopes don't wear down (at least not fast as teeth), then started to produce poor PTs to balance the situation in a wrong way. But still, it's strange how fast they lose strength. Maybe it's the same thing with TT drivers, i have not enough experience with them...
(Jul. 28, 2018 1:33 PM)bblader/90 Wrote: [ -> ]So, the main issue is about the drivers & performance tips. Hasbeys have slopes, while TTs have teeth and that's nothing new. But, i think Hasbro purposely nerfed the springs in performance tips. The best example i can bring is the following combo: V1/Heavy/Xtreme. At the beginning, it was VERY, VEEEERY tight, about two weeks later it became LOOSE (only used 3-4 times!!!!). The few layers that didn't lose all tighteness (but still not tight as before) are lS3, gV3 and V2, on the other hand Roktavor, Valtryek, Xcalius and many others can be twisted without a problem. Now, my statement can be explained in this way (absolutely a personal opinion): slopes look like new even after a long period of time, while teeth can break and wear down much faster, so Hasbro produced disposable pt in order to balance that difference. What you guys think?
If you have been keeping your beys assembled together, that can weaken the springs of the performance tips so it will be easier to burst. So it’s always best to store you beys disassembled so there’s no chance that this will happen and eventually, the springs might get tighter again.
Hi! Even though i left every single part stored alone, it eventually happened. Idk, maybe it's just a defective Xtreme.
Hold on a second: i stored my first wv assembled for about 2-3 weeks, but the driver (Xtreme from dragoon storm) still feels great on it. Guess huge teeth help a lot. Tried it on Obelisk Odin, just awful but it has one high tooth only (the last one before bursting). Tested on Dragoon Fantom, good teeth and the same Xtreme. Great feeling, what a shame that layer is so light...
(Jul. 28, 2018 3:17 PM)Laban Vanot Wrote: [ -> ]If you have been keeping your beys assembled together, that can weaken the springs of the performance tips so it will be easier to burst. So it’s always best to store you beys disassembled so there’s no chance that this will happen and eventually, the springs might get tighter again.
I've
tested this and found no proof, at least for TT. May follow the "Better safe than sorry" stance, but no one has actually proved it's a thing (that I'm aware). So it's much to put it forth as a fact.
If Hasbro uses springs that get pushed past their limit, then it's more likely that would happen. But no one has actually tested it, though Hasbro seems to be the brand under suspicion for this.
(Jul. 28, 2018 3:00 PM)bblader/90 Wrote: [ -> ]Hi Fox! So, is it just a matter of bad springs iyho?
Update: no, no! I didn't mean to say that Hasbro found out slopes don't wear down (at least not fast as teeth), then started to produce poor PTs to balance the situation in a wrong way. But still, it's strange how fast they lose strength. Maybe it's the same thing with TT drivers, i have not enough experience with them...
OK, I think I mistook some of the wording then. My bad. So basically, they weakened the springs in an attempt to lessen possible damage, you're thinking? Let me make sure I get you right, haha.
It's possible. It could also be just a poor design decision or QA thing. From when I was reading about springs in trying to figure out the whole "does leaving beys assembled weaken the springs?" question, one thing of note was that pushing springs past their limit is what would be the more likely reason for loss of push-back. Could just be a poorer material was used for cost-effective-ness and it wasn't realized they would worsen over time.
I think the claims for the assembled-leaving question were based on experiences with Hasbro, so yeah, some other people have noticed spring weakening.
Ok, i will not write something that sounds like a report but it's actually not. Promised! Mhhh, as Hasbro uses different plastic for layers (seems to be more resistent than the one of TT) they could likely use even a different type of "metal" for springs (worse metal). Btw, i can tell for sure that leaving a Hasbey assembled destroys the performance tip. Had a v2 with knuckle and Xtreme (not the one i'm talking about, came out with Roktavor r2 and Xcalius 2-pack). I had to throw it in the trash, completely ruined springs. But not this one (yellow, comes with Odax O2)! Never left assembled this bad guy.
Yeah, possibly the material or the build process. This is a nice post from the thread I linked:
(Apr. 24, 2018 6:04 PM)juncction Wrote: [ -> ]I unfortunately know a lot about springs due to my previous job...
Generally there's different types of processes involved with creating springs.
The types of springs I worked with were double tempered, a process of heating and cooling it it twice in succession to reinforce the internal structure, which prevents spring sag over time due to wear and retains spring rebound. Double tempering is generally done for more expensive springs, but even with double tempered springs, they would break down due to metal fatigue over time.
Spring failure occurs over compressions by either "per actuation basis" or "constant pressure" past it's yield limit and is affected differently per use case. I'm not sure what the yield limit is for burst driver springs. I'd venture to say that single tempering is most likely done in toys, but who knows it could just be a standard spring without tempering – which to answer your question:
Yes, keeping your bey built most likely reaches or surpasses the driver's spring yield limit due to the type of spring, which will inevitably wear it down over time – but it's likely that the threshold for when it will wear down from "constant pressure" will likely exceed the durability of the actual toy's/tip's lifespan.
I could be wrong though, I wouldn't know even by touch how a spring was created.
Would be cool if someone could try to do a test. Would need 2 of the same kind of Hasbro performance tips and confirm they're at the same strength (or at least close enough). And then, leave one in a bey combo for like 2 weeks to a month, then compare. Or just use it regularly and play with it for a day or week and then compare. Just make sure you have one that doesn't get used to compare it back against.
I could try, no problem! Which one in particolar? Disc & layer?
Btw, they are talking about creating a LTD format for burst and until further news will come out, i get ready. I just have a doubt between 3 layers: Roktavor R1, Valtryek and Valtryek V2. Beywiki puts R1 ahead of the other two, so i tried to ask some opinions but got no sure answers. Idk, V1/Heavy/Xtreme was impressive as it was super tight before X betrayed me for the springs question. My combo would involve knuckle/heavy and a brand new Xtreme. Beywiki also stated that V1 was slightly loose, so i bought one to verify. It's the same V1 i used in that combo, so i guess the website was wrong about it. Iyho, which one of the 3 should be my pick? Idk if you also have some Hasbros...
(Jul. 28, 2018 5:02 PM)Frostic Fox Wrote: [ -> ]Would be cool if someone could try to do a test. Would need 2 of the same kind of Hasbro performance tips and confirm they're at the same strength (or at least close enough). And then, leave one in a bey combo for like 2 weeks to a month, then compare. Or just use it regularly and play with it for a day or week and then compare. Just make sure you have one that doesn't get used to compare it back against.
Hmm... I don't know if it would be considered an official test, but I had a few Beyblades left built pretty much since I got them (ones I knew I wouldn't ever want to play with) for over 6 months now, and compared it to one I regularly played with and one that I've never used before and they all seem.... about the same. There's no scientific test to really hold it against though -- especially when you take into account
variance...
(Jul. 29, 2018 4:10 AM)juncction Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm... I don't know if it would be considered an official test, but I had a few Beyblades left built pretty much since I got them (ones I knew I wouldn't ever want to play with) for over 6 months now, and compared it to one I regularly played with and one that I've never used before and they all seem.... about the same. There's no scientific test to really hold it against though -- especially when you take into account variance...
Fair enough. My testing is less valuable in that same sense, that I didn't compare the TT drivers to start off, only after. And so I can't 100% guarantee they were the same to start.
Given your experience with springs, maybe you can answer something I was wondering about. Is it possible for springs to "regain strength" after being weakened? I've seen this claim made a couple times, and I'd think it wouldn't be possible on first thought.
(Jul. 30, 2018 1:26 AM)Frostic Fox Wrote: [ -> ]Given your experience with springs, maybe you can answer something I was wondering about. Is it possible for springs to "regain strength" after being weakened? I've seen this claim made a couple times, and I'd think it wouldn't be possible on first thought.
Once a spring is shot it’s done. Springs do not “regain strength.” Most of the time, a worn spring results in internal structure damage that can’t be repaired without thermal treatment or retempering it. In most cases worn springs are completely thrown out and replaced with brand new ones.
(Jul. 30, 2018 3:20 AM)juncction Wrote: [ -> ] (Jul. 30, 2018 1:26 AM)Frostic Fox Wrote: [ -> ]Given your experience with springs, maybe you can answer something I was wondering about. Is it possible for springs to "regain strength" after being weakened? I've seen this claim made a couple times, and I'd think it wouldn't be possible on first thought.
Once a spring is shot it’s done. Springs do not “regain strength.” Most of the time, a worn spring results in internal structure damage that can’t be repaired without thermal treatment or retempering it. In most cases worn springs are completely thrown out and replaced with brand new ones.
Mhh, i see. So, all i understood by your answers is that Hasbros suffer this issue but even TTs are not free of it. Let's say 60% Hasbro & 40 % TT (more or less). That's a right percentage?
PS how can a driver be disassembled for springs' replacement? I think it's not legal, though...
(Jul. 30, 2018 11:35 AM)bblader/90 Wrote: [ -> ]Mhh, i see. So, all i understood by your answers is that Hasbros suffer this issue but even TTs are not free of it. Let's say 60% Hasbro & 40 % TT (more or less). That's a right percentage?
PS how can a driver be disassembled for springs' replacement? I think it's not legal, though...
To answer your question initially posted and this one: the springs don't suffer from an issue globally (of starting very tight and then loosening dramatically). It's been known that certain drivers always have a looser fit on both Takara and Hasbro. You can't really put a percentage on it and you can't really assume that one brand suffers from a global issue while another does or doesn't. There's nothing definitive or absolute unless you do massive testing/data with many people saying/proving the same thing. For example: D2 is a fragile layer and it breaks easier than most layers, it's proven by the amount of pictures shown of it broken in half, but there's no way to put a percentage on how many people's D2's have broken or putting a percentage on the likelihood of yours breaking. There are too many variables.
I think the issue you might be experiencing is hard to pinpoint since there are too many variables. The mechanism for bursting involves the slopes on the layer, the disk thickness, and driver tabs. If the driver spring you have is worn down shouldn't it also be loose on other layers when you put that driver on another layer? The only way to test this is for you to buy another V1/Xtreme of the exact same type and compare it with the one you have. It could be possible that your situation is a one-of and that you just happened to get a dud. Though, my V1 is not very tight either, but I don't remember it ever being tight to begin with. I don't think Hasbro would intentionally create a more disposable product (I think actually it's the opposite).
It's definitely illegal to disassemble drivers if you plan to use it for WBO tournaments.
there is no point in comparing TT to hasbro
TT created and designed the game to be a certain way
if hasbro makes something that isn’t exactly the same as TT, it is a failure.
period
all hasbro changes are done to cut costs
if you doubt that, look at the hasbro launchers and stadiums
sometimes the changes dont really matter (cloudy plastic, simplistic paint)
sometimes the changes destroy the validity of the system (tight slopes, soft rubber, no god chips)
there is no comparison
TT are the real beyblades, hasbro makes licensed knock-offs
end of story
(Jul. 30, 2018 11:35 AM)bblader/90 Wrote: [ -> ]Mhh, i see. So, all i understood by your answers is that Hasbros suffer this issue but even TTs are not free of it. Let's say 60% Hasbro & 40 % TT (more or less). That's a right percentage?
PS how can a driver be disassembled for springs' replacement? I think it's not legal, though...
Hasbro is the only brand where people have said they seem to personally experience this. I said I can't tell it happening with my TT and Junction said they can't tell it happening with Hasbro. The tests we have aren't 100% perfect, but they do make you question some of the claims.
We need someone to definitively prove it one way or the other. People going "I swear this was tighter before!" or "I swear this was looser before!" isn't reliable, as honest as people believe they may be saying.
(Jul. 30, 2018 3:26 PM)juncction Wrote: [ -> ] (Jul. 30, 2018 11:35 AM)bblader/90 Wrote: [ -> ]Mhh, i see. So, all i understood by your answers is that Hasbros suffer this issue but even TTs are not free of it. Let's say 60% Hasbro & 40 % TT (more or less). That's a right percentage?
PS how can a driver be disassembled for springs' replacement? I think it's not legal, though...
To answer your question initially posted and this one: the springs don't suffer from an issue globally (of starting very tight and then loosening dramatically). It's been known that certain drivers always have a looser fit on both Takara and Hasbro. You can't really put a percentage on it and you can't really assume that one brand suffers from a global issue while another does or doesn't. There's nothing definitive or absolute unless you do massive testing/data with many people saying/proving the same thing. For example: D2 is a fragile layer and it breaks easier than most layers, it's proven by the amount of pictures shown of it broken in half, but there's no way to put a percentage on how many people's D2's have broken or putting a percentage on the likelihood of yours breaking. There are too many variables.
I think the issue you might be experiencing is hard to pinpoint since there are too many variables. The mechanism for bursting involves the slopes on the layer, the disk thickness, and driver tabs. If the driver spring you have is worn down shouldn't it also be loose on other layers when you put that driver on another layer? The only way to test this is for you to buy another V1/Xtreme of the exact same type and compare it with the one you have. It could be possible that your situation is a one-of and that you just happened to get a dud. Though, my V1 is not very tight either, but I don't remember it ever being tight to begin with. I don't think Hasbro would intentionally create a more disposable product (I think actually it's the opposite).
It's definitely illegal to disassemble drivers if you plan to use it for WBO tournaments.
Well, the thinner disc is-the better for the health of our beloved springs is then. Btw, making a list of the loosest drivers for TT and performance tips for Hasbro would sound great to me. For example, revolve: TTs are tight, Hasbros aren't. Obviously, they would have to be brand new.
(Jul. 30, 2018 5:51 PM)Frostic Fox Wrote: [ -> ]We need someone to definitively prove it one way or the other. People going "I swear this was tighter before!" or "I swear this was looser before!" isn't reliable, as honest as people believe they may be saying.
Could this test be completed using two identical, right out of the box beys, with one kept assembled and one disassembled for a set amount of time? I'd be willing to give it a try to see if it'd shed some light on the situation.
(Jul. 31, 2018 12:59 AM)sonyat Wrote: [ -> ]Could this test be completed using two identical, right out of the box beys, with one kept assembled and one disassembled for a set amount of time? I'd be willing to give it a try to see if it'd shed some light on the situation.
Yes, that would be a good way to test it. And the more tests like that we could have, the better. But even 1 test says more than nothing. So if you can do it, that'd be great! :D
Both Junction and I did our own versions of testing (for Hasbro and TT respectively), but because we didn't compare beforehand, we can't be totally sure, as much as we want to say they were the same.
Like, I'd say it's unlikely that the ones that sat locked-up weakened to be the same as the ones that were brand new...but I can't say I'm sure it was. So any testing that can better confirm (or deny) it would be great!
@[Frostic Fox] or @[sonyat] a table if you don’t already have one
![[Image: 2Qsomwv.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/2Qsomwv.jpg)