World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc.

But as it stands right now, there is almost no reason not to use Heavy in a combination. It's a dominating part and it's simply too good in any and all combos. That doesn't give any diversity at all; we may as well write to Takara-Tomy and tell them that we're only interested in a two-piece system with the way things currently are, that's how bad it's getting.

As Kei has said, a format without it needs to be tested first, but I honestly feel that it's the best step for the metagame. Regardless of its usefulness to all types, the part simply dominates.

Fine, Spread may not be prime for Defense, but new Disks are always being released. Even if Defense gets hit hard, perhaps that's best for a while given how it has ruled the meta for too long. Seeing Attack/Stamina/Balance combinations doing something for once would be a refreshing change while we wait for another viable Defense disk.

TL;dr: Burst is a three-piece system, not two, and we should be treating it as it deserves to be treated; with a diverse and unpredictable metagame.

(Feb. 02, 2016  3:29 AM)JesseObre Wrote: [ -> ]Taking out heavy will not fix things either. Heavy helps all burst beys and taking it out will make things less competitive and just make Defence not even anything.(even though thisformat is crazy lol)

So to end my long rant and I apologize, heavy getting banned would be a mistake and a total loss to burst.

It's not supposed to fix the OHD issue. Honestly, a separate thread needs to be opened to discuss Heavy if it'll confuse people by mentioning it here.

Read what I've previously written though. While many believe a Heavy ban would be a loss to Burst, I believe it'll be the only thing to save Burst from being stuck in the endless "two-piece system" loop.

Yo Jesse, I would not say you have no skill hahah. Like Bae Master though, what you probably meant is that you have no real knowledge on the Burst game.

(Feb. 02, 2016  2:25 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly if there is no Heavy it benefits Attack the most. Defense would be obliterated if it used Spread.

Which is why maybe other Disks like Armed or Ring would be used instead for pure Defense. But I don't know for sure. Nobody does. As I've said: we need to do testing first before making a decision to ban Heavy. It deserves another thread, as ~Mana~ mentioned. Our decision regarding Odin/Odin + Heavy/OHD will be announced very soon.

My thoughts on banning heavy:

I'm really beginning to see that on certain combos, there are plenty other discs that are just as good and in some cases better than heavy. For example, with Valkyrie, force seems to me to burst less frequently than heavy on most combos, Force/Ring/spread/armed/central may even have this effect on Wyvern and Deathscyther combos. Really with the nature of burst, we could find out that there is a combo that is better with oval or armed than heavy, it's really hard to tell with the physics being as complicated as they are in burst. But I think it's too early to write heavy off as being the only good choice at this point.

Heavy has stamina greater than or equal to everything else in most cases, but if we start to find that it makes you more prone to burst with a lot of combos I can see its usage declining a lot.

As for old school ko defense, heavy is really the only viable disc to use, which is why I don't think it should be banned. Without heavy it would be too easy to beat things like W_N with V_X imo.

I think that with a little more testing we will soon see more diversity in disc selection but banning heavy would probably make attack and stamina types way too OP, since they don't necessarily need it, but defense types (which we're lacking in) need as much weight as possible right now.

https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-April-i...ual-Layers

Unless the above thread is a giant lead up to an April Fool's joke, I don't think both Odin AND Heavy should be banned, unless the plan is to only ban them when used with each other or something like that. I mean, there are only two tournaments planned between now and April; three if you count the one on April 3rd in Japan. By the time the work is done to figure out what a Heavyless metagame would look like, either the new parts would drop, or there would only be maybe one or two March tournaments tournaments to even get to try that out.

Yeah, let's not focus on banning Heavy as well. Our options are:

- A full ban on Odin
- A ban on Odin in combination with Heavy
- A complicated ban on Odin with Heavy and Defense and Needle or something like that
- No ban at all.

I'm in favor of a full ban.

(Feb. 02, 2016  11:36 AM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: [ -> ]https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-April-i...ual-Layers

Unless the above thread is a giant lead up to an April Fool's joke, I don't think both Odin AND Heavy should be banned, unless the plan is to only ban them when used with each other or something like that. I mean, there are only two tournaments planned between now and April; three if you count the one on April 3rd in Japan. By the time the work is done to figure out what a Heavyless metagame would look like, either the new parts would drop, or there would only be maybe one or two March tournaments tournaments to even get to try that out.

Am I the type of person who would even joke about Beyblade news ?

Tournaments always get proposed maximum two weeks in advance and we are just at the beginning of February, and I know for sure that we will have one in Montréal at the end of the month, so expect a lot more than just the two currently planned ...

I still think by the time a consensus is reached on Heavy it would be too close the release of all those new products.

This thread was never meant to discuss a ban of Heavy, and it's a decision that would take a ton more research than we have to make properly.

What if I told you Odin Heavy Defense, the notorious “destroyer” of the Beyblade Burst metagame wasn’t actually that unstoppable? You probably don’t believe me and might even just follow up this post with a “Odin OP nothing you say actually matters” but hopefully that won’t be the case and we can all agree on this. To sum up the current issue some people argue that Odin Heavy Defense is to good and versatile for competitive play and the game would benefit to have it leave. Some will argue that Odin Heavy Defense doesn’t need to leave and the game would be perfectly fine to keep it or worse to ban it. Odin Heavy Defense is not the bane of the meta and it’s not impossible to KO/Outpsin/Burst it.

So first off let’s talk about the problem that most people have with Odin, they believe that it is to hard to outspin and it is also two challenging to KO/Burst. From what I have tested, seen and experienced in tournaments both of these statements are far from correct. First off Deathscyther outspins Odin Heavy Defense like nobodies business. Although everyone seems to believe that it’s a bit closer to 50-50 or Odin just blows it out of the water. The tournament I attended in January Deathscyther Heavy Defense demolished Odin Heavy Defense. In actual matches and freeplay. Even a younger player EthanQ42 was doing remarkable with Deathscythe even in the face of Odin. Stormscorpio1 and I both did some testings on it and they weren’t even worth wearing out our Deathscythe’s, they were creaming Odin Heavy Defense so hard it was ridiculous. Not to mention Attack seems to have a pretty high success rate against Odin Heavy Defense as well. We didn’t have any tournament matches, but when me and ZachBob were trying out Odin Heavy Defense vs Valkyrie ____ Extreme, Odin was getting it’s butt whooped. Also it appears there have been multiple times in tournaments that Extreme has done very successful against Odin Heavy Defense. By looking at the tournament that was supposedly dominated by Odin and the players could not defeat it I found this

(Feb. 01, 2016  7:09 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]It is worth noting that @[Beyonomics] went undefeated in his block (5-0) using (almost?) exclusively Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme, winning several times against Odin Heavy Defense. And in the finals against LMAO, I defeated OHD using the same combo 3-2. LMAO also used it during block play and had success against OHD.

Beynomics, a player who has not played that frequently lately (or in years from what I’ve seen) was able to successfully defeat Odin on multiple occasions using attack. Attack is so powerful against Odin. Another tournament I’d like to point out is this match. Extreme had just came out, Ginga did not have much testing but he still decimated geetster99. Heck I even was able to defeat Odin Heavy Defense with Spriggan Heavy Defense 3-0 by bursting it once and KOing it the other times. This was also in a tournament match against Dark_Mousy. Also I’d like to point out that a combo being “harder” to use isn’t a very valid excuse to why it isn’t reliable. Anyone truly serious at this game probably should be able to launch attack, otherwise I don’t really see how you could consider yourself good. So is Odin still so unbeatable?

Also these arguments about launch strength aren’t really that good. Most of the skill in beyblade is the launch at the beginning of the game. If you have a weaker launch and are afraid of a mirror match, either choose a different beyblade, if you aren’t winning I’m honestly not sure why you would choose to continuously choose to use the same beyblade. The other option would be to work on launching in the mirror match, sometimes straight launching might not be the way in a stamina match up if you know for sure you aren’t winning by outspin. Yes you might be thinking it's absurd, but I won a stamina matchup before by banking by beyblade a bit to knock my opponent’s off battle due to him having a better launch and I won off it. I’m personally not sure how well banking Odin v Odin would be (I have never tried it) but maybe that weaker launched player could win.

It would be nice to see some more videos from Beyblade Shogatsu, I want to see the attack vs Odin battles (if that even happened that much).

Now time to respond to some other relevant posts!

(Jan. 31, 2016  10:43 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: [ -> ]So basically the problem with people losing with OHD is just in their launch, it's either launched too hard or too light, there is just a slight margin in between where OHD is just unbeatable by any attack type. The only real counter to OHD was OHA, DHD did okay though OHD still had the upper hand. There is also one more problem I have with OHD, in my block, that's all people used and Lani was the only one to use VHA and she lost 2/3 of the matches she used it in (one of the matches she won was between a complete new comer), both me and ThermalG managed to win. Lastly... OHD is just a battle of launch power, super lame if you ask me, and honestly because of Odin still being a thing at shogatsu it kind of ruined the whole fun of the tourney, which was a real bummer.

How often is this “unbeatable” used? Are players able to consistently use it? Launch power has always been a factor of beyblade, it’s kinda annoying when people start acting like it’s a new subject.

(Feb. 01, 2016  7:09 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]Acknowledging that Odin Heavy Defense does have an at least decently reliable counter in Xtreme combos when used by skilled players, this whole discussion then becomes in some ways a discussion about how much we value the competitive and skilled aspect of the game versus the approachability and "fun" factor of a metagame where new players can find some success. We could call it a day and say that "Xtreme combos can defeat OHD well enough, so why ban Odin or Heavy?", but in the end Beyblade isn't a professional sport where only the top end talent can play at the highest level with everyone else who has reached that level. So, we have to be concerned about approachability, drawing new players in, and making both the game and the community more diverse.

But this should be about skill, this game or website as a whole will never be truly competitive. Literally every other major game is like this. And if you new players want to play they can either A. Learn launch techniques and such or B. Just play mediocre/tier 2 combinations, because they might just be approaching the game and honestly don't care.

(Feb. 01, 2016  7:33 AM)cadney Wrote: [ -> ]So, of course, I started feeling hopeless. I came up against OHD in my block at Shogatsu 3 times and lost all 3 of those matches.

One might argue that I could just get better at shooting extreme, and I do eventually WANT to achieve that -- but the learning curve with that part is far rougher than I've experienced with other Beyblades I've picked up.

May I ask what combinations you used? Did you use anything that would have a chance of KOing Odin or did you just go in hopeless and used Stamina?

Well you can't just get handed an amazing part and expect it to be easy to pick up. If more people practiced with Extreme it would honestly dominate the meta. Learning curve isn't an excuse.

(Feb. 01, 2016  2:28 PM)ClaraM Wrote: [ -> ]It's also been proven to be beaten fairly consistently by attack types using Xtreme in the hands of those skilled enough to use it well.

The real question here is, do we ban OHD, just Odin or just Heavy in order to make the game easier for the unskilled players to find a more equal footing? Of course we shouldn't. That's like asking if we should ban Usain Bolt from running because no one can match him for speed. It's ridiculous to even think it.

I know this is going to come off as me being slightly elitist or whatever but that's just not true. Competitive play should be just that, competitive, it loses that when you start banning parts in order to make the game easier and this is coming from someone who's never beaten someone in an OHD mirror match. I'm not going to go around blaming the combos or the parts when really the issue lies with me just not being at that skill level yet.

Not gonna lie this was one of the best posts in this thread in a while. It hits so many of the good points. If you haven't looked through what ClaraM has said I advise you to because it's amazing.

If newcomers complain about launch and skill they should practice, if not accept it. If older members complain, I honestly don't see why. This is a competitive and skillful game. If you can't launch it's your problem, no one else's. I don't see why any of you are even attempting to play burst if you find Odin to be such a problem.

I think enough tournament evidence has been presented to make that event experience an anomaly, though. You can question the competitiveness of the Montréal, London, Toronto, etc. tournaments all you want, but the fact remains that there are also highly skilled Bladers in all of those regions and there is a consensus there. Good thing if one in five Attack Bladers is able to defeat Odin, but that does not make it a reliable counter in tournaments anyway.

Deathscyther is definitely not a firm counter at all, so this is again an anomaly. Your use of extreme hyperboles also reminds me of The Black Dragon's speech and I think we can write neutrally with facts instead of trying to embellish them. It makes it more pleasant to read such things that are exceptions for the majority all in one go - not only are they exceptions, but they are very exaggerated, so I hope you can understand why I think the hyperbolism could be toned down.

Just so its known, Odin is beatable. The problem I see is that people are thinking that it isn't. I propose a ban of OHD , but for right now until this Odin/Heavy/Odin+Heavy issue is solved we should put our focus on finding an "Odin Buster" . I know people have already tried numerous combos against OHD and beys of the sort, but there has to be SOMETHING that could beat it. The combo wouldn't even need to be effective against other beys but it needs to just beat odin. I know this is hard but I'm willing to grind until I find a combo to cure this cancer known as Odin Heavy Defense.

(Feb. 03, 2016  1:07 AM)ZKamikaze Wrote: [ -> ]Just so its known, Odin is beatable. The problem I see is that people are thinking that it isn't. I propose a ban of OHD , but for right now until this Odin/Heavy/Odin+Heavy issue is solved we should put our focus on finding an "Odin Buster" . I know people have already tried numerous combos against OHD and beys of the sort, but there has to be SOMETHING that could beat it. The combo wouldn't even need to be effective against other beys but it needs to just beat odin. I know this is hard but I'm willing to grind until I find a combo to cure this cancer known as Odin Heavy Defense.

The fact is that we have been trying to find an "Odin Buster", but nothing is consistent.

Something can beat it, but not consistently. We've been waiting far too long for new parts to beat it, and the waiting has to stop. We don't have time to keep waiting while OHD dominates.

(Feb. 03, 2016  1:07 AM)ZKamikaze Wrote: [ -> ]Just so its known, Odin is beatable. The problem I see is that people are thinking that it isn't. I propose a ban of OHD , but for right now until this Odin/Heavy/Odin+Heavy issue is solved we should put our focus on finding an "Odin Buster" . I know people have already tried numerous combos against OHD and beys of the sort, but there has to be SOMETHING that could beat it. The combo wouldn't even need to be effective against other beys but it needs to just beat odin. I know this is hard but I'm willing to grind until I find a combo to cure this cancer known as Odin Heavy Defense.

Hm, the counters do need to be good against other customizations, otherwise the problem remains that the game only revolves around Odin and how to defeat combinations using it.

And yes, the occasional odd Spriggan customization surprisingly bursts Odin, but it is not viable in any other scenario and it will not work against every single user of Odin.

Quote:What if I told you Odin Heavy Defense, the notorious “destroyer” of the Beyblade Burst metagame wasn’t actually that unstoppable? You probably don’t believe me and might even just follow up this post with a “Odin OP nothing you say actually matters” but hopefully that won’t be the case and we can all agree on this.

Quite honestly, this is a totally inappropriate and ineffective way to open a post presenting an argument. You've already framed anyone who disagrees with you as someone who's dismissing your opinion erroneously. How can you expect to convince anyone who disagrees with you when you've immediately framed them as too stupid to develop their own opinion?

You're better than that.

@[ClaraM] Wow, I cannot be any prouder of a fellow Londoner. As Thunder Dome pointed out, you pointed out exactly what the issue is and why OHD shouldn't be banned. I totally agree. The Usain Bolt analogy fits perfectly into this scenario.

I am for not banning since I don't see the point. People can choose to use OHD vs OHD or go with Deathscyther or Xtreme. We can't just ban parts to make the game easier for new players. If Heavy were to be banned then most Xtreme or attack based combos would become difficult to use or ineffective.

As a personal example, ClaraM manged be beat me with CHD while I used OHD, and in a later match with the same combos, I managed to beat her by increasing my launch power. Of course that makes it seem like OHD is better, but if I were to use CHD against all OHD users, I bet I would fair well.
Thunder Dome mentioned banking in order to win, and indeed some people know how to use that to their advantage. Balance Blader did that everytime with OHD and managed to KO opposing OHDs. If he had Xtreme, he'd probably be able to beat all OHD users in London. With enough practise, I'm sure most people could do it.

I think we should keep things as they are. If people want to be confident in their abilities to defeat OHD, then practice is needed, just like in any sport. For example, as a ex-competitive swimmer, breaking the under 30 second barrier for 50 metre frontcrawl/freestyle seemed like a feat only monsters of swimmers could achieve, but eventually I became a monster myself and broke that barrier. It's a fact that some people will always be naturally better than you, but with enough practice, anyone will eventually catch up to some extent. OHD isn't unstoppable, it is totally beatable and I think it's more fun to train hard and feel epic at that moment when you're able to beat "unstoppable" combos comes.

I hope some of that made sense and it's completely my own opinion. Of course I use OHD a lot myself since like many others, I like to win my matches, but I think in time, people will be able to beat me with Xtreme or Deathscyther combos with ease. Perhaps some other great part will come out that is on par with Odin. After that, the metagame will probably balance out, in London at least.
Ahem, like a certain person said, "Don't let your dreams be dreams, just do it!". lol

---

EDIT:
I do understand most "counters" are unreliable, but do statistics matter in a tournament situation? A lot of the time testing done at home does not match what occurs at tournament matchups. Anyone with sufficient skill with Xtreme could most likely KO OHD, especially if OHD was used by someone with a lower skill level. Just speculation...

The "making the game more accessible to new users/people who do not own Odin" aspect is really just a bonus, guys. It is not going to litterally make or break this debate.

(Feb. 03, 2016  1:27 AM)Kai-V Wrote: [ -> ]The "making the game more accessible to new users/people who do not own Odin" aspect is really just a bonus, guys. It is not going to litterally make or break this debate.

Hm, but then in that case, what's stopping new users from purchasing Odin? If anyone joined now, surely they'd know that Odin is one of the most recommended purchases to do well?
Of course some people don't buy it for their first tournament, but then they'd either learn from that or they would have done some research beforehand.

Well, that's my viewpoint on it. Of course making the game accessible to new users is good, but OHD provides a challenge that players should strive to master or beat. That's all.

(Feb. 03, 2016  1:32 AM)Manicben Wrote: [ -> ]

(Feb. 03, 2016  1:27 AM)Kai-V Wrote: [ -> ]The "making the game more accessible to new users/people who do not own Odin" aspect is really just a bonus, guys. It is not going to litterally make or break this debate.

Hm, but then in that case, what's stopping new users from purchasing Odin? If anyone joined now, surely they'd know that Odin is one of the most recommended purchases to do well?
Of course some people don't buy it for their first tournament, but then they'd either learn from that or they would have done some research beforehand.

Well, that's my viewpoint on it. Of course making the game accessible to new users is good, but OHD provides a challenge that players should strive to master or beat. That's all.

You've literally described a scenario where the best choice for everyone is apparently to use OHD.

The issue isn't that OHD is invincible, nor is it that its existence makes the game less accessible for beginners. I thought this was an interesting tangent and it was really cool to see where that discussion lead, but it's not going to impact our decision on this. While accessibility is a thing we think about a lot, we wouldn't alter the game's rules to suit them. I would rather see us bring them up to speed quickly, and I think we're doing an OK job at that – but lots of work left to do.

The issue is that the entire metagame has become centered around it. I don't think there's anything I could say now that I didn't say in this post.

When people say that VHX isn't consistent enough do they mean that the combo doesn't consistently beat OHD or that the different skill levels among the players using VHX vary, and so the results are inconsistent?

I can't really tell based on the differenct comments in this thread, but if the only thing making the results different is a lack of practice then I don't agree with a ban.


If Odin did get banned, is there a defense combo that consistently stops VHX? If not then wouldn't the tournament scene just turn into everyone using whatever the best stamina combo is or VHX? Thats the same lack of diversity that people are arguing exists because of OHD.

(Feb. 03, 2016  1:38 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ]The issue is that the entire metagame has become centered around it. I don't think there's anything I could say now that I didn't say in this post.

I feel silly for not reading all of the previous posts. I completely see both viewpoints now and I must completely agree. I've restated what ClaraM and Thunder Dome have been saying and that is that OHD can be beaten. But now I see what you've posted a while back Brad and I agree with that too. This has happened in London, but not too much since not everyone has Odin, so we see some old/controversial combos which is always fun to see.

It is true that now it's down to whether we use Odin or whether we can beat it. When I think about it like that then perhaps we may need a (temporary) ban. It frustrates me when I even try to think of a solution that will satisfy everyone. I kinda hope that some of the upcoming releases have the potential to balance the metagame, but again that's too far away.

And if Odin were banned, wouldn't another combo just take its place? I mean DSS and DHA were pretty good while they were around... (Of course I'm sure Xtreme combos and VHS could beat them) I know there's not much I can do now to help decide, but I still think that a ban isn't a great idea right now.

My expectation is that if Odin were banned, we'd see Wyvern in both stationary and mobile combos for Defense, DHD take over for stamina but being pressured by Xtreme-based Attack combos and stationary Valkyrie combos (if anyone dares to use it). But I suspect there will be new checks and counters we'll discover if Bladers are finally looking for more than "whatever can beat OHD," which the customizations forum has been centered around ever since I posted about OHD in the first place.

Instead of banning Odin, then, why not limit the number of times a player can use it throughout an event to 3 times in small tournaments (7-10) and 5 times at tournaments any larger? That really shouldn't be much trouble to keep track of. And this way, players can't "spam" it, yet they can still get their money's worth from the part.

(Feb. 03, 2016  1:53 AM)Angry Face Wrote: [ -> ]Instead of banning Odin, then, why not limit the number of times a player can use it throughout an event to 3 times in small tournaments (7-10) and 5 times at tournaments any larger? That really shouldn't be much trouble to keep track of. And this way, players can't "spam" it, but they can still get their money's worth of the part.

Too complicated and I think doesn't solve any issue, since Odin's presence will still be checking every other combo players have to consider.

(Feb. 03, 2016  1:56 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ]

(Feb. 03, 2016  1:53 AM)Angry Face Wrote: [ -> ]Instead of banning Odin, then, why not limit the number of times a player can use it throughout an event to 3 times in small tournaments (7-10) and 5 times at tournaments any larger? That really shouldn't be much trouble to keep track of. And this way, players can't "spam" it, but they can still get their money's worth of the part.

Too complicated and I think doesn't solve any issue, since Odin's presence will still be checking every other combo players have to consider.

If having a different rule for different tournament sizes is too much, then how about just limiting the use of Odin to 3 times throughout all Burst tournaments, regardless of size? Using an Odin combo isn't a guaranteed victory, and if a player has to use it to even reach the finals, that's one less time they'll get to use it there if they make it. Limiting the usage of Odin would force players to find other combos to use anyway, but they'd still get to use it if they really wanted to.

Seriously, if even this is too complicated, then how do games like Yu-Gi-Oh! and Magic even get any attention? It's not like simpletons are running Beyblade tournaments.