For a while now both CF and GCF have been used on F230 like they are the same. At the last MD tournament I somehow managed to beat Arupaeo's (Insert Chrome Wheel) Dragooon F230 CF using Duo Cancer SA165 EWD. At the time, we both thought it was just Arupaeo's F230 acting up, but as I have played around some I have realized that the difference maker was his use of CF.
So my first guess was it was a pure stamina thing between GCF and CF, but after five rounds of nearly identical solo spin times, I began to look into other reasons.
Genbull Genbull F230
CF
1. 3:52.59
2. 3:47.62
3. 4:02.81
4. 3:57.71
5. 3:45.74
Average: 3:53.3
Genbull Genbull F230
GCF
1. 3:57.94
2. 3:58.12
3. 3:49.32
4. 4:00.57
5. 3:54.27
Average: 3:56.04
That's when the shape struck me.
CF is perfectly circular while GCF is a spiked circle (thus their names).
Sidenote: The varying width of the tip on both bottoms seems to have next to no effect on stamina (it would be interesting to see if this holds true on WF and XF)
CF
[Image: Bottom_cf_img.jpg]
GCF
[Image: Bottom_gcf_img.jpg]
What this means: In order to stand, something needs to be on a flat plane, each spike on GCF is an individual plane while on CF there is one continuous plane. This makes it much easier for GCF to resist gravity and continue standing on next to no momentum. CF, on the other hand, is unable to support itself below a certain rpm. The best evidence of this is in BB-10 matches. Even after stopping spinning, GCF is much more likely than CF to be supporting the entire beyblade in an upright position.
I did ten rounds of solo spinning of each bey (I have two orange F230s and two suitable stadiums for this) and GCF remained standing after stopping spinning 8/10 times while CF was only upright 5/10 times. This may not seem like a significant difference, but what it shows is that GCF is able to spin steal for a slightly longer amount of time each match. CF has a 50% chance of falling over, very often before the beyblade has fully stopped spinning.
Conclusion: GCF gives a blader a signifcantly better chance of winning when using F230.
Video and Photos soon, my new tripod is finally almost here.
Interesting. I've always preferred GCF, but I figured at the last event using CF would be taking less of a risk- I guess I was wrong, haha.
Very informative and well written, Time!
Interesting! I always thought GCF would have more drag, thus have shorter spin times.
... The solo spin times are very, very similar, so I would not call one better than the other.
Furthermore, yes GCF will help keep the combination upright, but CF being perfectly round means it should rotate more, which is something important in battling spinning tops ... Sure, at the end of the match, the bottom part is not spinning at all, but it can help by increasing the time the whole Beyblade spins before resting on the ring and letting F230 act.
All in all, we have to be careful with averages. In my opinion, the difference would have to be a lot more significant for us to make anything but a neutral conclusion.
That's why I said the averages were basically a mute point, my point was on a stronger ability to remain upright.
Um... I don't know what you're getting at with multiple plains and all that whatnot, but GCF has always been known to provide higher performance against opposite-spin.
It stays up 'cause it's wider yo. It ain't rocket science. XD There's a reason Genbull Dragooon T125GCF doesn't work well with CF.
TheBlackDragon (like a billion years ago) Wrote:GCF is the heart of this combo. Yes, I do have CF, but GCF actually has higher LAD. If you look closely, The flat part of GCF is equivalent to the width of XF, while CF is only as wide as WF.
From comparing the LAD of XF, WF, and GF in the past, we know that the broader the surface area on the bottom of the tip, the higher LAD the combo will have. Even though CF does spin smoother after it has toppled over, it topples over sooner, so it doesn't really matter.
This was before the whole LAD vs. Precession topic came up, so cut me some slack K.
There is one factor you've overlooked, though. CF has a tendency to swing around after toppling on F230, which, due to its highly frictionous edge, GCF cannot do. This effect can allow the F230 user to actually swing back, exposing its underside and forcing the opponent downwards while avoiding feeding it spin. This is a somewhat inconsistent phenomenon, as I've heard multiple people who have/have not experienced it (it usually depends on the smoothness of your F230), but it can definitely be the defining point in choosing which one you want to use.
If Duo SA165EWD out-spun Dragooon F230CF, there was something wrong with the F230. Since F230 relies almost completely on Life After Death to out-spin its opponents, the precession of the Bottom is mostly irrelevant providing its edge is wide enough to keep F230 standing upright at the end of a match. CF and GCF are pretty much exactly equal on F230 in terms of LAD.
But yah, GCF is usually valued for its higher speed/traction. If your CF don't swing, GCF is almost certainly a better choice.
Those spin-times are really interesting. I actually found GCF to spin longer, but maybe it was a fluke. Thanks for those.
But as I mentioned, CF possibly allows for more rotations, so perhaps more spin stealing. What I am trying to state is that I do not think any of this proves that either Bottom is better than the other.
(Jan. 31, 2014 2:01 AM)Kai-V Wrote: [ -> ]But as I mentioned, CF possibly allows for more rotations, so perhaps more spin stealing. What I am trying to state is that I do not think any of this proves that either Bottom is better than the other.
There was actually some testing done by myself and a few other NC members on the topic a while ago (not sure if we ever posted anything), and we found GCF to be vastly superior. The LAD you get out of either will only last a couple rotations, and GCF's ability to remain upright longer far outweighs CF's microscopicly higher LAD.
I might actually be able to get some testing up later. I did a lot of this CF vs. GCF stuff back developing Genbull Dragooon T125GCF.
: Just a question... does your F230 produce the swinging phenomenon when used with CF? Just something that would be interesting to know. If it does, and GCF is still out-doing it, that should be looked into more.
My F230 does, so I almost always use CF, but I haven't exactly done an enormous bucketload of testing with it myself, so I could definitely be wrong.
Swinging effect meaning the upper half of the bey actually swinging up/down or left/right after it has dropped down to its disk? If so, off and on, I notice it significantly more frequently in zero g stadia for some reason.
I would really hate this discussion about F230 losing vs. winning not to come down to "Oh, your F230 must suck" or "Oh, you launch must be terrible." It is a bad habit.
Time, the actual reason GCF stays upright better in battle is because its tip is wider. Better platform to stand on. Nothing to do with the spikes, at least outside of ZGA perhaps (if it were a matter of something other than their width, the fact GCF is about half a gram heavier (vs .1-.2 for XF v WF) is probably more relevant, mostly where that extra weight is). Stamina, I think they're close because for a lot of the match, for XF in particular, their contact surface with the stadium is actually the side of their tips, rather than the flat section, that's just a theory of mine, though. As Kai-V mentioned, 3s difference isn't significant in solo spins.
(Jan. 31, 2014 1:54 AM)Kai-V Wrote: [ -> ]... The solo spin times are very, very similar, so I would not call one better than the other.
Furthermore, yes GCF will help keep the combination upright, but CF being perfectly round means it should rotate more, which is something important in battling spinning tops ... Sure, at the end of the match, the bottom part is not spinning at all, but it can help by increasing the time the whole Beyblade spins before resting on the ring and letting F230 act.
All in all, we have to be careful with averages. In my opinion, the difference would have to be a lot more significant for us to make anything but a neutral conclusion.
I did some informal Gravity V Gravity tests a while back out of curiosity, and while I had to weak launch both to get them to stay in the ring, GCF won pretty consistently. The difference between their LAD is surprisingly small from what I've seen, close enough that like TBD says, GCF's ability to stay standing is more significant - basically the same thing as XF vs WF, there was a good reason for XF being used on MF MLD CH120__ (though FWIW I'm not sure if GF is better than XF, because its surface area is so large it seems to settle at low RPM too easily, but I haven't looked into it in much detail - GF self-KO's violently whenever I try to use it with any real launch strength). Seeing as it apparently doesn't have major Self KO issues, GCF's additional speed around the edge is also a defensive bonus too.
So yeah, I'd go for GCF, but I cannot see the difference being big enough that SA165EWD could outspin it unless what I've heard about the f230(g)cf/SA165EWD matchup is vastly exaggerated.
(Jan. 31, 2014 1:27 PM)*Ginga* Wrote: [ -> ]I would really hate this discussion about F230 losing vs. winning not to come down to "Oh, your F230 must suck" or "Oh, you launch must be terrible." It is a bad habit.
There are reasons TBD is asking that, and reasons many of the more experienced or knowledgeable members will ask questions along those lines fairly often - the actual behavior of the beyblade is important to interpreting data in a lot of cases, and in this case it's also something a user has noticed that is worth looking into, so any opportunity to do so should be taken - especially if it could have a bearing on the data being presented.
If you do not like it, then simply ignore the discussion rather than obstructing the ability of those of us with a deeper interest in/understanding of the game to gather relevant information.
Th!nk, I am going to have to disagree with you on the tip thing. Once F230 has tilted to the ground the width of the tip has no effect (length on the other hand would). It is all about the rounded vs. multi-planed shapes of CF and GCF, respectively.
(Jan. 31, 2014 11:54 PM)Time Wrote: [ -> ]Th!nk, I am going to have to disagree with you on the tip thing. Once F230 has tilted to the ground the width of the tip has no effect (length on the other hand would). It is all about the rounded vs. multi-planed shapes of CF and GCF, respectively.
... Except that the Bottom has stopped spinning. It's attributes no longer factor in (unless your F230 is capable of producing the swinging behavior); it's all the Track at that point.
Unless you're suggesting that CF has higher LAD than GCF because its plane is smoother. In that case, as has already been stated, the effect is so small that GCF's ability to remain standing for a longer period of time outweighs it by 100 to 1.
Form reading the OP, You're stating that the gear shape of GCF allows it to remain standing upright at lower RPM than CF. That's imply not true. It's the width of the Bottom itself. There's more surface area. Hence the reason GF can remain standing longer than MS. It's just wider. The shape of the rim has no effect if it isn't touching the ground.
I really don't think it's that complicated, LOL! XD
The main point of CF is an attack tip with more stamina. GCF is risky, but is more aggressive. I honestly would rather prefer GCF for its KO percentage. CF for more Duo F230 combos. GCF is also rather aggressive, and CF lacks this. GCF should therefore be used for attack more often.
(Feb. 01, 2014 12:44 AM)KingRagerBlade! Wrote: [ -> ]The main point of CF is an attack tip with more stamina. GCF is risky, but is more aggressive. I honestly would rather prefer GCF for its KO percentage. CF for more Duo F230 combos. GCF is also rather aggressive, and CF lacks this. GCF should therefore be used for attack more often.
CF is a WF with a big disk on it, it's extremely aggressive. Plus, you're missing the entire point here - we're directly comparing them for spin stealers, which are generally considered a subset of stamina types.
GCF is only really useful for directly attacking things (rather than spinstealing with some attack) in Zero G Stadia, through sway.
I'm not talking about the tips though I'm talking about the disks
(Feb. 01, 2014 6:16 PM)Time Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not talking about the tips though I'm talking about the disks
... But the disks don't touch the ground.
I don't understand how you can reach the conclusion that the gear shape of the disk on GCF keeps it standing longer than CF.
Yeah, the discs are the same width and honestly the gears do nothing but decorate the bottom.
I also do think the width of the tip can change the stamina. If you do a solo spin times with F230, there might be a difference from what I've seen with mine. CF has a little more stamina I think.
Once a bey has fallen to its disk, but not over. Did any of you read the OP all the way through?
(Feb. 02, 2014 5:09 AM)Time Wrote: [ -> ]Once a bey has fallen to its disk, but not over. Did any of you read the OP all the way through?
Yes, I read it all the way through. Several times, actually.
I don't get what that means. XD The disk is usually the farthest an F230CF/GCF custom falls.
Now you're catching on. What my testing shows is that it has a much greater chance of falling all the way down when CF is used over GCF.
Personally I think that's due to the bevelled shape of CF rather than the spokes, though the fact they should slow down any rolling from side to side might help.
That's basically my point, all the testing really did was quantify the effect of the shape
Based on that then CF gives more stamina. The stamina stays the same until the end when precision kicks in is when CF spins longer with more stamina. With GCF, there is an extra "surge" or an attack before falling, because the gears make it go up once more.
That post makes absolutely no sense and what of it even formed sentences was wrong.