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Huh. Well, I think we should start to test everything for BB-10, starting off with the tier list now, which we have gotten two tests, have you go that test vs Defense, Ga?
I don't have an Attack RC, my best is Metal Change Core...
I can do tests with that, but the reason why BB-10 tests are important is due to the less prominent Tornado Ridge, which affects rubber attack tips much more than Metal Change Core. I can say that MCC is not affected much by the BB-10 tornado ridge provided that you launch well.
I just want to see if Defense is stronger since the Tornado Ridge is weaker.
And I'm saying that I cannot test it properly haha.

EDIT: I had mentioned that this test needs to be done a page ago because I am unable to do it...
Try to use Metal Change Core for the combos, since Time doesn't have Jiraiya.
So, to be clear, which combination needs to be tested against what ?
Generic attack combo vs. generic defense combo in BB-10, to see if the weaker TR has a significant enough effect on attack types. Theoretically it should, but at the same time GFCUV is super controllable so who knows.

Shining God MS, I think you're missing the point here. I can do the tests with Metal Change Core like you're saying, but this does not concretely support or disprove the claim we are looking at here. The point is to use a rubber RC attack beyblade. This is the most effective form of HMS attack and the one that needs a reliable Tornado Ridge the most due to its speed. MCC, as I have stated, is very much controllable in a BB-10 and offers similar results to when it is used in older stadiums like the Tornado Attack or Tornado Balance Type S.
Okay, glad to see you posted Kai-V! And the combos I have a request for are Smash Attack vs Defense in the BB-10

AR: Jiraiya Blade/Slash Upper(left spin)
WD CWD Defense Ring/God Ring
RC:GFC/UV

AR: Circle Upper/Samurai Upper
WD: CWD Defense Ring/God Ring
RC: Bearing Core 2
Honestly I think a lot of the stuff that apparently needs testing does not at all... Most of the old information on HMS is correct from what I've seen, at least on competitive stuff. There are a few things that people from back then have doubted since then, which I generally agree with, and a lot of the stuff people are asking about I've already posted about -sure, no formal tests but if you really expect the tests that are proposed to show any difference that is discernible from random chance in TA vs BB-10, I can't say I agree at all...

Anyway, my thoughts: BB-10 isn't that big a deal for HMS to be honest. It does make GFC (UM) a bit more prone to self KO, and I tend to get more scraping issues with Metal Flat Core in it (deeper slope, I guess), but overall, not that huge a difference, and Grip Flat Core and Metal Weight Grip Core are basically the same, the latter's harder rubber might be a bit more of an issue in BB-10 but it's nowhere near significant enough to affect the CC list.

As for defense, well it's not like defense stands much of a chance in Tornado Attack anyway, and given how much of HMS attack hits things upwards (be it through upward smash or upper attack or basically always both), the tornado ridge doesn't make *that* big a difference to defense (Jiraiya Blade might do a bit better against defense in BB-10, but again, it's not a significant difference between that and TA). In general, BB-10's Tornado Ridge is still enough for HMS at least from the many things I've tried.

Overall, it's very, very similar to Tornado Attack, and shouldn't have a significant bearing on this list (and if it does, it's more likely to be due to the deeper dish causing things to scrape more easily rather than the slightly shallower TR).

Let me save some trouble, though, and at least quickly throw together a very rough update based on what I know (notes at the bottom, most if not all of this stuff there is a consensus upon anyway). Aside from CWD's I have every part on the old list and the new list, and a bunch of others, so I have a decent idea of what I'm doing.

Don't have time to tidy it up at the moment, so if someone else wants to 'formal' it up, that would be nice.

(Jan. 22, 2012  3:22 PM)Poseidon Wrote: [ -> ]
Competitive Heavy Metal System Combos.

Attack

AR: Samurai Upper, Circle Upper, Slash Upper, Advance Attacker (Upper Mode), Jiraiya Blade
WD: CWD Free Cross, CWD Defense Ring, CWD Reverse Defenser, CWD Free Survivor, CWD Free Saucer, CWD God Ring (all preferably with 17.5g CWD Metal Part), 15g Circle Wide, Circle Heavy.
RC: Grip Flat Core (Ultimate Mode), Grip Flat Core, Metal Weight Grip Core, Metal Change Core.

Defense
AR: Samurai Upper, Circle Upper.
WD: CWD God Ring, CWD Free Survivor, CWD Reverse Defenser, CWD Defense Ring (17.5g CWD Metal Part only, for all)
RC: Bearing Core 2

Survival

AR: Advance Survivor, Advance Balancer, Wolf Crusher, Circle Upper.
WD: Circle Wide (15g>14g), CWD Free Survivor, CWD God Ring, CWD Reverse Defenser, CWD Defense Ring (CWD's are best used with 17.5g CWD Metal Part)
RC: Bearing Core

Notes:
Merged Attack - this might be a shock but they all use/work fine with the same parts (in part because all of those listed bar Jiraiya Blade use smash (regular or upward or both) as well as upper attack, and in part because of how compact HMS is as a generation). There is one awkward setup that results (Jiraiya Blade/Circle Wide/Metal Change Core) but separating it out is messy and I think most people would have the sense not to do that if they read the beywiki article or posts about it.

Removed Metal Flat Core from attack: Unnecessarily hard to control, scraping issues in BB-10, but most importantly it's not significantly faster than Metal Change Core, much harder to control, and has poorer stamina and recoil handling (MCC catches the ridge nicely). Could be argument about this but I think most people who have used both for a bit agree MCC is just a plain better option.

Added Metal Change Core to Attack: As above, it's a metal/budget option - this also ends up with the jiraiya blade aggro compact in attack. Ohwell.
Added MWGC to Attack: Consensus on this amongst knowledgeable users is that it's good, and I agree. Recoil control could be better as it is not so great at attack vs attack, but the controllability is real nice.
Advance Attacker - personally I find it inferior to the others listed there, but I guess it would still work well in HMS given how bad defense is.

CWD's: Unless you use a stupid one (anything big and scrapey), these make like 0 difference to attack, aside from stamina where you want to go with the one with the best stamina (but Circle Wide is still better). Jiraiya's CWD works fine, for example, and given how strong attack is, unless you use something dumb it won't make that big a difference (moreso on Metal Change Core, of course, but on the others not really).
If someone wants to write out all of the small/not dumb CWD's, that'd be nice because that's a pain and will be long.

Changed Circle Wide to 15g only - 15g circle wide is not at all hard to find, and noticeably better for attack from what I've done. Recoil control, flywheel effect, and all that jazz.

Defense: lolthiswasmissinghalftheRC'sbutstillhaddefenseringwhatevenisthis (fixed that)
Stamina: Added 15g>14g note (I feel this is important to make clear given spin stealing is involved which can benefit from lighter weight). Personally I don't like CWD Defense Ring because it doesn't have the defense and its LAD isn't really any better than CWD Reverse Defenser. On having used all of those AR's, each has their ups and downs.

Testing That Is Actually Probably Needed:
I mentioned a bunch of defense/balance setups using samurai changer's RC, fixed in place, in HMS Q&A recently that could be looked into, I intend to get to this when I have time. There's also that Double God Ring setup with that RC if anyone ever gets the parts to test it lol.

Viability of Force Smash needs investigation (Advance Attacker, Circle Heavy/17.5g CWD Defense Ring, Metal Semi Flat Core could have potential but given how attack dominated HMS is, eh, there's also tornado change core but that seems like Dranzer MS's RC without control over the gimmick so I'm very unconvinced.)

Still no balance on this list, as I said, they're all covered by attack.

And obviously any other new combos people have come up with could use testing, I recall not having the parts to test the one Time mentioned (I don't have an einstein ms RC, despite having a bunch of purple einstein ms ar's lol).


But yeah that will need a cleanup before it goes up and I'm going to be busy for a little with plastics and some mfb stuff, and for most HMS tournaments this is of questionable relevance anyway - it would honestly be more useful to do comprehensive testing based off a parts list consisting draciel/driger/gaia dragoon/dranzer MS, the advance series maybe, wolborg ms and death gargoyle MS. Not even kidding.
Awesome, thanks th!nk. I appreciate the clearing up of the GFCUV issue as well, since I do not have one to test with myself. Actually I do prefer CWD Defense Ring on my Attack combos usually, but you can use most of them. So long as it doesn't overreach the AR (like you mentioned, not big and scrapey), it's fine.

CWDs: CWD Free Cross, CWD Defense Ring, CWD Free Defense Ring, CWD Reverse Defenser, CWD Free Survivor, CWD Free Saucer, CWD God Ring, CWD Needle Attacker (this one is iffy, from experience it does slightly extend past the AR but I don't think it makes much of a difference).

The CWD from Battle Change Core extends past the AR usually, and I have no idea how CWD Circle Attacker affects a bey because it is rather big, but it should be okay.

As for the force smash thing I'm planning on picking up a Dark Leopard MS and Aero Knight MS when I can, since I can't get Dragoon MS or something along those lines (unless someone wishes to donate for the sake of testing? Wink ). I can test the Battle Change Core combo, but as I've mentioned to you and many others here no rubber attack RC. I'll do what I can though.

Time, what is this combo? I have an Einstein MS RC so I might be able to do some testing.

EDIT: Hopefully this can actually end unneeded discussion, I mean I had mentioned here that what we had was pretty much solid to begin with...
I'd cut CWD Free Defense Ring off that list because its weight distro is really bad and I vaguely recall it having scraping issues on a somewhat worn Grip Flat Core (too late to test now), and CWD Needle Attacker, if it extends past the AR I'd just leave it, it's not like we don't have a tonne of options there anyway.

CWD Circle Attacker and BCC's CWD part both don't fit on the listed attack rings or if they do, get in the way.

Thanks for listing the rest out, I've updated the list in my post appropriately.

On balance combos Shining God MS mentioned: Rubber Weight Core sucks hard due to an incredible tendency to fly right out of the stadium from light taps from same or opposite spin opponents, I don't know how anyone ever used it. Wolf Crusher MCC needs looking into but I recall saying I have doubts about whether that's just an inferior Death Gargoyle (if not, I have doubts about whether that's just an inferior Death Gargoyle), but I haven't had a chance to try it out myself, so yes, that could use testing.

However, this thread would not be the appropriate place for such testing to be honest. http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-HMS-Parts-Discussion would be more suitable, as is done with the plastics analogs. That thread is also not interrupted by me posting ten thousand word posts about everything I tested each day so it should be pretty conducive to posting and discussing test results and concepts etc.


EDIT: Oh, and yes if it wasn't already obvious I agree on the whole 'unneeded' thing... This isn't plastics, in HMS people had more time to try each part, less parts to deal with, and a better idea of what they were doing. The only real issues on beywiki are in regards to things that aren't really competitive, and other than that it's just that the 17.5g cwd metal piece being swappable was for some reason not considered in the writing of most of the articles, which is generally pretty easy to account for once you're aware of it. I guess there are also concepts that weren't really noticed till later that have a notable effect in hms *cough*upwardsmash*cough* but the articles themselves seem to mention most of these things anyway, even if they don't quite go as far as they should.

As I said in my last post, what would probably be more useful to the userbase as a whole is testing the things that most people have access to in depth, to help them decide what to buy, what to do with what they have, and so on. It's a small parts pool so it's hardly impossible. If someone has a rubber-tipped attack combo at a tournament they're going to blow everything in that selection away, so testers wouldn't need anything more than Death Gargoyle MS, and maybe Jiraiya MS, seeing as that seems to be available every so often (maybe I'm wrong, this is all just off the top of my head).
Actually, I've used RWC to quite a bit of success, seeing how it manages to destroy stamina types every time. Essentially, it's worked because people often used nonaggressive ARs a la Wolf Crusher on Bearing Core stamina combos instead of Circle Upper so they could only watch as RWC threw stamina combos into the dust.

I only have CWD Defense Ring, so I assumed that CWD Free Defense Ring would act similarly. I'll believe you though, since I have no experience with it.

Wolf Crusher + MCC was something I did a very long time ago, when I got my DEMS. It's not incredible, mainly because the plastic wolf heads on Wolf Crusher extend out too far and hamper any attack ability from the slopes. It's vastly inferior to just using Death Gargoyle, since Wolf Crusher doesn't necessarily add any more stamina to the combo than Circle Upper.

lmao I completely forgot that thread existed, whoops.
Perhaps I just launch very aggressively in general but even with wolf crusher I have trouble with it bouncing away and out of the ring, and honestly it's not like there aren't much, much more useful things that will beat zombies in any spin direction matchup anyway that don't require two gimmick specialty series beys (death gargoyle being the most obvious).

It has a rather extreme overhang and it's pretty bulky in general too. I don't think anyone really anticipates just how bad it is until they try it themselves though lol, it's pretty hard to believe, despite the fact it's not a total abomination of a part either, just really useless at everything.
I just put it on a GFC combo quickly to make sure I was right about it scraping (by putting it in a stadium and looking) and yeah, it'll scrape, might take a hit to make it happen, but it'll scrape.

Yeah, I figured. I'll still give it a try when I get time just out of curiosity (perhaps it'll hold up against more aggro-balancey stuff or whathaveyou)
Oh, perhaps you use Turtle Crusher on it? Turtle Crusher is rather imbalanced and would cause something like that to happen on such a tall, top-heavy bey. I always use mine with my Metal Ape, which is nicely heavy, compact, and well-balanced. It always gets the job done for me.

Ah okay, looking at pictures now your description of CWD Free Defense Ring makes sense.

Actually, that combo when I first tested it had trouble against Metal Saucer/15g Circle Wide/Bearing Core, since that was like my other competitive combo. Circle Upper version crushed it. At the same time though, I had used Wolf Crusher/Circle Heavy/Metal Change Core, so it might not be the best version. I don't think it would make much of a difference though.

Anyway, to the Parts Discussion thread instead!
No, I'm definitely using Metal Ape, though tbh it's kinda a poorly distributed AR, no focus in its weight. I was fiddling with it on various defense setups a little wihle back and it was just really poor overall. I have more than one of them too, so it's not that I've got a bad one somehow. While it does seem to be the best choice for that particular setup, I'm still underwhelmed by it. And I was using TA for all this, too, so it's not that. Perhaps I'll have a play around with it and see if I can find what I'm doing wrong, but my point about there being much more convenient and effective ways to handle zombies still stands (as went past discussion on including it, I think).

It makes sense, but I guarantee if you try one you'll still be very underwhelmed. It's magical like that.
It's because the ape heads provide an annoyingly disproportionate amount of recoil.

Perhaps I'll post a video then, because I have no problems with my Metal Ape + RWC Wolborg killer...
Is your Bearing Core heavily used? It could be rather aggro, which may cause problems. But it still shouldn't be much of an issue unless you're launching with the force and speed of Chody's gorilla hands or something.
I have a few bearing cores but none are particularly worn, no. As I said, perhaps I was doing something wrong or am remembering something wrong, so I'll take a look at it.

Don't bother with the video, I trust that it works for what people say it does.

Do you think it deserves a spot though? I mean, Zombies are really not difficult to KO, and even the more aggressive Zombie AR's give RWC trouble, AND you have to get the right spin direction matchup. I can see it being viable in Tornado Balance, where both RWC and Zombies would be harder to KO, but aside from that, it's a counter to a portion of a single type and does pretty badly against anything with an aggressive AR (and Circle Upper being competitive for everything is kinda a problem there). It seems like more of a "thing you can do with these parts" than a legitimate competitive combo to me.


EDIT: Oh, something I forgot: it would be extremely difficult to test due to DKO's and how small the difference would be, but from what I've seen (and I messed around with it a lot), mold 2 Circle Upper is at least as good for survival as mold one. From what I've found, the extra weight in general seems to help, and logically given the position it should aid the flywheel effect. The stability certainly doesn't seem any poorer.
I think it deserves mention personally, but as an inferior choice. It should be notable though, especially considering that the current market includes relatively cheap Round Shells. It also does work as a play-safe counter to nonaggressive Bearing Core combos.

I agree with you that it is very much selective and weak otherwise, but it still deserves mention for its abilities considering the market and the general competitive scene, or whatever is left of it at least.
I wouldn't consider something that needs a specific spin matchup safe by any means, and who can get BOTH MAMS and RSMS but not Death Gargoyle MS or something else similar which has decent attack out of the box (Advance Striker I guess but my experience with that hasn't been good), and therefore can handle any zombie thrown at them without having to worry about spin direction?

I need to play around with my HMS to see just how good an attacker must be to handle zombies (as well as try some cheap stuff against RWC) but really Death Gargoyle MS alone should be enough reason to keep it off IMO...
Just when I got CWD Defense Ring... it's off the list? Wow this is karma O.o
You make a compelling argument th!nk...

I've always held a bit of a soft spot for Round Shell, especially when I wasn't comfortable with my DEMS and therefore could not reliably KO Wolborg. I feel like it's useful for those who can't control attack types properly, but I agree with your line of reasoning in that it's heavily situational.

I've already seen that Round Shell gets shatted on by Upper Attack, and it does pretty meh against Jiraiya Blade/MCC Smash Attack. So though I hate to let it fall, I have to agree with you in the end. Keep RSMS off the tier list.

God MS CWD Defense Ring is still a very viable purchase thanks to the extra-heavy CWD metal piece, and overall being an excellent CWD. It's just that the plastic part doesn't matter as much so long as it doesn't interfere with the AR in Attack-type HMS.
Additionally, for general part discussion please refer to the HMS Parts Discussion thread.
Just played around with it and am getting it to beat wolborg ms reliably, so I must've been thinking about another matchup or something.
But yeah, it's useful but the fact is it's just not the type of combo that goes on the list. It has plenty of detail in the beywiki article for Round Shell so people who have that bey or are looking at buying it should be able to find out about it easily as it is.

Also played around with DEMS vs WBMS and I think any difficulty just comes down to learning to use Metal Change Core - it took me a couple of launches to get the angle right but after that Wubbums went flying reliably. I'll have to do a video on the various metal change tips and launching them some time.
I also tried DJ Spiker/Circle Heavy/Flat Core against Wubbums and was getting consistent KO's with correct banking - again it's just a matter of practice.

Driger MS's AR on the same combo had a bit more trouble, but that's where I noticed one other thing about BB-10 vs TA: due to the shallow ridge, Flat Core IS more prone to self-KO in BB-10, however, it is also much less prone to tornado stalling and has an extremely pronounced tendency to hit the edges of the walls and bounce right through the centre of the stadium at high speed with the banking I usually use. Perhaps it's just because I'm used to using XF, WF and MF in BB-10 but I find the slope makes it much easier to hit stamina types in the centre of the arena with Flat Core in BB-10 than Tornado Attack.
That's why DEMS is better than Wolborg out of the box, it's really not difficult to KO WBMS (wubbums? lol)
DJ Spiker really? damn

Yes, Flat Core has a tendency to move into the center by bouncing off the walls, I've seen that myself. But if you're using an AR like, say Metal Upper, the amount of stamina you can lose if you don't hit the bey in the center hard enough is ridiculous.
(Sep. 06, 2013  5:50 PM)GaHooleone Wrote: [ -> ]Awesome, thanks th!nk. I appreciate the clearing up of the GFCUV issue as well, since I do not have one to test with myself. Actually I do prefer CWD Defense Ring on my Attack combos usually, but you can use most of them. So long as it doesn't overreach the AR (like you mentioned, not big and scrapey), it's fine.

CWDs: CWD Free Cross, CWD Defense Ring, CWD Free Defense Ring, CWD Reverse Defenser, CWD Free Survivor, CWD Free Saucer, CWD God Ring, CWD Needle Attacker (this one is iffy, from experience it does slightly extend past the AR but I don't think it makes much of a difference).

The CWD from Battle Change Core extends past the AR usually, and I have no idea how CWD Circle Attacker affects a bey because it is rather big, but it should be okay.

As for the force smash thing I'm planning on picking up a Dark Leopard MS and Aero Knight MS when I can, since I can't get Dragoon MS or something along those lines (unless someone wishes to donate for the sake of testing? Wink ). I can test the Battle Change Core combo, but as I've mentioned to you and many others here no rubber attack RC. I'll do what I can though.

Time, what is this combo? I have an Einstein MS RC so I might be able to do some testing.

EDIT: Hopefully this can actually end unneeded discussion, I mean I had mentioned here that what we had was pretty much solid to begin with...

Sorry, just noticed your nudge to me, what was it you were referring to?
something something Spring Core combo.
I have no idea what this combo is, so if you want me to test it I need to know the rest of the parts.

Just so you know, all testing discussion is being moved to the HMS Parts discussion instead of this thread so we can keep this for tier list discussion only.
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