I'm opening this discussion to put in evidence a wrong "consensus" (as Dan said),in my opinion, about Lightning.
Reading the VariAres article on Beywiki:
Overall section:
VariAres quickly found it's home in smash attack customs and is regarded by some as of even higher standard than Lightning which has held it's own position as the best smash-attack wheel since release.
Is this right? Not in my opinion.
Discuss
When lightning came out to until RS/RSF was released, lightning was great. There's no denying that.
There were also several other attack wheels/ metal wheels. But at that time, it was clear that lightning l drago was the best.
When RSF and RS were released, they pretty much neutralized right spin attack.
So what do we have left? Lightning.
In the metagames outside of Italy, there isn't frequent use of attack types.
So why would someone use a right spin when they'll rarely get in an attack vs attack, compared to attack vs defense/stamina. It'd be like preparing for something that isn't going to happen (attack vs attack)
Right spin attack is loads useful for you guys in Italy, but elsewhere, it's a good way to lose. Although now there are really good right spin attack wheels.
So then there's just lightning left, and because it was left spin and could defeat rubber defense bottoms, it was more versatile and reliable than using a right spin attack, and any other wheel.
And I don't think barely anyone used gravity? Other than Italy. I could be wrong though.
This is all just my view on it.
It is correct, circumstance made Lightning the go-to wheel and Lightning filled those shoes just fine, Galaxy is questioning its actual ability now, he believes Fang, Gravity, Hell etc actually have more power than Lightning which is regardless of meta-game.. Or at least this was my take. :V
Again, this all goes back to different meta-games and IDK how exactly to compromise for both sides..
(Oct. 09, 2011 5:00 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]When lightning came out to until RS/RSF was released, lightning was great. There's no denying that.
There were also several other attack wheels/ metal wheels. But at that time, it was clear that lightning l drago was the best.
When RSF and RS were released, they pretty much neutralized right spin attack.
So what do we have left? Lightning.
In the metagames outside of Italy, there isn't frequent use of attack types.
So why would someone use a right spin when they'll rarely get in an attack vs attack, compared to attack vs defense/stamina. It'd be like preparing for something that isn't going to happen (attack vs attack)
Right spin attack is loads useful for you guys in Italy, but elsewhere, it's a good way to lose. Although now there are really good right spin attack wheels.
So then there's just lightning left, and because it was left spin and could defeat rubber defense bottoms, it was more versatile and reliable than using a right spin attack, and any other wheel.
And I don't think barely anyone used gravity? Other than Italy. I could be wrong though.
This is all just my view on it.
Uhm,i'm quite perplexed.
I mean,RSF is BB-91 and RS BB-82 (if my mind works good xD)
Gravity Perseus is BB-80.
So,Gravity's been released before that bottoms.
In Italy i could play 100 matches between LLD and Gravity Perseus.
To be correct MF LLD 90RF vs MF Gravity Perseus 90RF.
I'm still able to win 99\100 matches with my Gravity Perseus.
So i can't understand this part of discussion you've made,sorry :\
Also,as i said to Dan,the point is not to talk about different MG we have,but the point is that Beywiki must say the truth,and the truth isn't that Lightning has the best Smash Attack since its release.
Am i wrong about it?
(Oct. 09, 2011 5:08 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]It is correct, circumstance made Lightning the go-to wheel and Lightning filled those shoes just fine, Galaxy is questioning its actual ability now, he believes Fang, Gravity, Hell etc actually have more power than Lightning which is regardless of meta-game.. Or at least this was my take. :V
Again, this all goes back to different meta-games and IDK how exactly to compromise for both sides..
I'm not saying this
Sorry,maybe i'm not able to explain my idea in english as well as i can do in italian
I'm saying that BeyWiki must contain objective truth,talking about our MGs is a subjective truth.
Objective truth is that Lightning isn't the best smash MW!
Okay, time line:
Lightning was better than Storm, Quetzalcoatl and whatever the heck else was on the tier list at that time. It wasn't a consensus then, I remember fights about Storm vs. Lightning (Smash-wise, obviously Lightning was wayyyy better, still.) McFrown was pretty much the only one (+ Capt. Squirrel) who advocated Lightning and how it was WAYYYYY better than Storm.
Next big thing was probably Pegasis resurrected/Vulcan. By that time McFrown had people thinking Lightning was the best wheel of that time, won the war on Storm. (he was right, too. I remember him advocated Lightning all the time>Storm)
People were comparing Vulcan to Lightning, and McFrown thought they were about even. (+ he slayed Quetzalcoatl) I'd agree with that. Gravity came up, yeah, but didn't make a giant impact for some reason until later. (probably Vulcan's fault.) As soon as we moved to Rubber tips/230CS combinations Lightning was obviously the only choice. (Gravity was still sort of in the dark iirc..)
Now lets say Basalt BD145CS/MB? Anything that isn't Beat, Blitz or VariAres can consistently KO it to my knowledge. Meaning Gravity and Lightning are far in the dust now. Which they are, smash-wise.
IDK if this makes sense to you but basically after all of right-spin died due to rubber bottoms, Lightning was the only competitive choice (Gravity wasn't main-stream obviously, but I don't think it has as much smash as Lightning anyway..)
Basically what SSJ said. But yeah, since it's release it has been extremely prominent which cannot be denied..
(Oct. 09, 2011 5:13 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]Uhm,i'm quite perplexed.
oh, so sorry!
Quote:I mean,RSF is BB-91 and RS BB-82 (if my mind works good xD)
Gravity Perseus is BB-80.
So,Gravity's been released before that bottoms.
I don't think that people found out about gravity until a while after it's release, and it was found because it was left spin capable (due to RS/RSF)
Quote:In Italy i could play 100 matches between LLD and Gravity Perseus.
To be correct MF LLD 90RF vs MF Gravity Perseus 90RF.
I'm still able to win 99\100 matches with my Gravity Perseus.
that just didn't happen often in any place other than Italy. So it's not very accurate taking those tests because they'll not be likely to happen.
Quote:So i can't understand this part of discussion you've made,sorry :\
yeah, so sorry, I hope this post is easier to understand!
Quote:Also,as i said to Dan,the point is not to talk about different MG we have,but the point is that Beywiki must say the truth,and the truth isn't that Lightning has the best Smash Attack since its release.
For us, smash attack is based on how well it does against defense types, and for you it also depends on how well it does against attack and defense. So in our terms, lightning is the best. In attack vs attack, it isn't.
And Italy is the only metagame that has frequent attack vs attack, but there's a ton of other metagames that basically override this.
-----------------
Quote:I'm not saying this
Sorry,maybe i'm not able to explain my idea in english as well as i can do in italian
I'm saying that BeyWiki must contain objective truth,talking about our MGs is a subjective truth.
Objective truth is that Lightning isn't the best smash MW!
ah, I think Dan was talking to me.
Sorry, when I talk about Smash Attack I mean how well it can knock things out of the stadium, how consistent it is.
With Italian Meta-Game I imagine it being the heaviest wheel wins..
But yeah i agree what you're saying,if course Lightning is better then the Wheels you've listed.
What i'm discussing now is that is not true to say that between Lightning and VariAres were not released other Wheels with better smash attack of Lightning!
Gravity in my opinion has a better smash.
The same for Hell,and the same for Fang.
Also Leone MF was the onyl that at the time could defeat Libra MF!
EDIT: To SSJ\Shaba: i can provide you vids of how many time Gravity defeat Lightning.
Now i've got a bad PC,so i can't do them. However i'm quite sure i can ask to Yamisalyer to do this.
Also,it's a universal method,if you see it,you'll be able to repeat it all the time you want without training,it's quite elementary to do.
Yeah I get what you're saying. I don't necessarily agree with it. Pure smash, I think Gravity is lacking as for Leone I also imagine it with ridiculous amount of recoil, which Lightning has less of.
Libra should have been unbanned when Lightning became prominent, honestly.
With that recoil we could defeat Libra when it was banned because it was so superior
So i think that if Leone could smash Libra when the components were very restricted,don't know why we must say that Lightning was the best smasher before Vari ! :\
Also,trust me,Gravity works xD. I say this also because you can choose its spin. We could defeat Left and Right Beys in attack,defense or stamina customizations before Maximum Series with Gravity,of course.
When I play Basalt vs. Gravity I don't see the same powerful qualities I do with Lightning and I feel in a way its a bit more passive, plus if you look at it's shape..
Do you mean Basalt 230 CS vs Gravity BD145 RF?
No, I mean in general: Basalt combinations vs. Gravity combinations.
(Oct. 09, 2011 6:16 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]No, I mean in general: Basalt combinations vs. Gravity combinations.
Uhm,if you say this,well general competitive combinations can be:
Basalt BD145 CS\MB
Basalt TH170\230 CS
and
LLD BD145\CH120 RF
Gravity BD145\CH120 RF
Right?
(i've listed Defense customizations for Basalt,and a couple of Attack Combo for both of them,where the only things that change is the MW,that is the point for what we're discussing)
Well,both of the Attack Customizations against Basalt BD145 will lose.
Against TH170\230 both of them will win,but not for their smash capacity.
So i don't see any good point on this example,can you explain me?
I didn't specify combinations nor did I say they were competitive what I am saying is whenever I use ANY Basalt (COULD BE ANYTHING LIKE 145WD OR SOMETHING NOT COMPETITIVE AT ALL, FOR FUN.) against ANY Gravity combination (ANY TRACK+RF, I notice this more when both wheels are on same track so 145RF) that Gravity does not have the same furious abilities as Lightning (I.E Doesn't smash are farther/longer or as hard such as a tap out rather than Lightning having a large hit. Lightning has a larger amount of harder hits than Gravity does.)
If that makes sense.. What I am saying is Lightning has more smash. Not everything will revolve around what is written on the list..
lightning and leone have always been my favorite for attack
nothing ive tried is better
leone really doesn't self ko and it knocks out like everything
(Oct. 09, 2011 4:22 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]Reading the VariAres article on Beywiki:
Overall section:
VariAres quickly found it's home in smash attack customs and is regarded by some as of even higher standard than Lightning which has held it's own position as the best smash-attack wheel since release.
Perhaps "held it's own position as the
best smash-attack wheel" isn't the best way of putting it. It was more like, "the most popular", in my opinion. I don't think Lightning was ever the clear-cut "best Smash Attack Wheel" because we always had Leone and Pegasis available before Lightning was even released.
I'm not sure about Pegasis but I certainley agree with Leone.
First two voices that agreed with me,yo!
(Oct. 09, 2011 7:14 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't specify combinations nor did I say they were competitive what I am saying is whenever I use ANY Basalt (COULD BE ANYTHING LIKE 145WD OR SOMETHING NOT COMPETITIVE AT ALL, FOR FUN.) against ANY Gravity combination (ANY TRACK+RF, I notice this more when both wheels are on same track so 145RF) that Gravity does not have the same furious abilities as Lightning (I.E Doesn't smash are farther/longer or as hard such as a tap out rather than Lightning having a large hit. Lightning has a larger amount of harder hits than Gravity does.)
If that makes sense.. What I am saying is Lightning has more smash. Not everything will revolve around what is written on the list..
I agree. I think Lightning has more Smash than Gravity. I also think that Lightning is better than Vari because the recoil of Vari isn't a good enough trade-off for that extra smash, at least in my opinion anyway.
(Oct. 10, 2011 3:31 PM)Mc Frown Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure about Pegasis but I certainley agree with Leone.
Pegasis was a arguably the best Smash Attack Wheel available until RS was released.
Pegasis was very good against defense, but it was horrible in attack vs attack, so i wouldn't call it one of the best MW.
Again attack vs attack was happening so often there, but you should consider that having high win % in any matchup is actually better than having a massive win% in one matchup.
Also, about gravity vs lightning:
Lightning BD145 is better against basalt 230 customizations, but...
Gravity has so many ways to win which makes it one of the most consistent wheels ever made.
Seriously, it's like gravity has 6-4 against everything, while lightning has 7-3 against something.
(Oct. 09, 2011 5:35 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Pure smash, I think Gravity is lacking as for Leone I also imagine it with ridiculous amount of recoil, which Lightning has less of.
This is a point that has never quite been clear to me, what is the difference between recoil and smash? Perhaps you all could help me better understand this.
To me it seems that (at a basic level) smash is the combination of 3 elements:
1) total energy produced by collisions (force)
2) net vector direction of that force
3) mass of the "smashing" bey compared to it's opponents
Based on my theory above, Fang has high total energy, and relatively high mass, but the shape of the metal wheel produces a force vector at the point of smash that is more or less horizontal. This means that Fang and its opponent recoil sideways, with the lighter bey receiving a higher velocity component of the smash, but Fang receiving a healthy portion as well.
Lightning on the other hand, while not being judged to have true "upper" attack, produces a force vector at the point of smash that does point upward, resulting in the other bey being knocked up and out while lightning is knocked back and down.
Any further thoughts on this? I would love to hear how others view the components of smash and it's difference from or similarities to recoil.
(Oct. 11, 2011 4:08 PM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 09, 2011 5:35 PM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]Pure smash, I think Gravity is lacking as for Leone I also imagine it with ridiculous amount of recoil, which Lightning has less of.
This is a point that has never quite been clear to me, what is the difference between recoil and smash? Perhaps you all could help me better understand this.
To me it seems that (at a basic level) smash is the combination of 3 elements:
1) total energy produced by collisions (force)
2) net vector direction of that force
3) mass of the "smashing" bey compared to it's opponents
Based on my theory above, Fang has high total energy, and relatively high mass, but the shape of the metal wheel produces a force vector at the point of smash that is more or less horizontal. This means that Fang and its opponent recoil sideways, with the lighter bey receiving a higher velocity component of the smash, but Fang receiving a healthy portion as well.
Lightning on the other hand, while not being judged to have true "upper" attack, produces a force vector at the point of smash that does point upward, resulting in the other bey being knocked up and out while lightning is knocked back and down.
Any further thoughts on this? I would love to hear how others view the components of smash and it's difference from or similarities to recoil.
Well, in my experience - and personal belief on the "wording" of it, Recoil and Smash are hateful Siamese Twins. Any wheel with outstanding Smash potential is more than likely going to have a large amount of Recoil, if only because of the specific types of segmentation/wheel formation that facilitate high Smash potential.
However, in straight up definitive "differences", I consider "Smash" to be the event that occurs on a large contact, not necessarily one that requires first a small hit followed by a kinetically-charged counter-hit. Such counter hits, too, are obviously also Smash, and in this regard, too much Recoil can misalign the trajectory and cause the massive gain in responsive momentum to be wasted entirely.
As for your observation of Lightning's "Smash", I believe the appropriate term is "Upper Smash", when the Smash is applied at an upward angle. Not entirely certain if this is correct, however, as I do not own the wheel.
(Oct. 11, 2011 2:34 PM)Yamislayer Wrote: [ -> ]Pegasis was very good against defense, but it was horrible in attack vs attack, so i wouldn't call it one of the best MW.
Again attack vs attack was happening so often there, but you should consider that having high win % in any matchup is actually better than having a massive win% in one matchup.
And also Stamina, of course. But yes, I do agree. However, you should consider that in Toronto, Attack was not nearly as prevalent as it seems to have been/is in Italy. Therefore, it was a great choice back then for us.