(Aug. 14, 2011 3:40 AM)Kai-V Wrote: [ -> ] (Aug. 14, 2011 3:32 AM)drakio Wrote: [ -> ]hey how come there is no thread for banning earth, not saying there should be I was just curious, because earth is pretty good, I don't know if it is as good as basalt but it works great for me
This is exactly why you should not be allowed to post your opinion in this topic. You just do not know what you are talking about ...
Whatzzer, read what I have posted about Attack types not necessarily dominating more if we banned Basalt ...
well it was just a question, chill out, and the earth works very well in the max stamped so I was just wounder, its not like it hurt you :\
Have you ever heard that hasbro stadiums are illegal
yeah, but whats up with every one being so short tempered if someone says something wrong
Because what you said was plain stupid, that's why. Earth gets beaten quite easily. Especially with Beat and Fang nowadays. Now that CS has been "Discovered" as a top-tier part, Earth and Libra (Mainly Libra) will have more use. Ban Basalt, just not forever. Let the metagame adjust to life without Basalt, and see how that goes.
I agree with B : D not being the solution , as it is not going to be released and tested for a while and it might not even be that good.(Doubt it though).
I would like to bring up the fact of new releases , what are we going to test them against? Take this for example
MF-F Fang Pegasis II 100RF (Ctr. mode) vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145CS
Fang: 19 wins (95% win rate)
Earth: 1 win (5% win rate)
MF-F Fang Pegasis II 100RF (Ctr. mode) vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RS
Fang: 15 wins (75% win rate)
Earth: 5 wins (25% win rate)
Even on RS earth was mauled , so what win rates do you expect beat to get or when something new is released and preforms beastly?
BTW I find that beat defeats the dominating basalt combos.
(Aug. 14, 2011 4:09 AM)drakio Wrote: [ -> ]yeah, but whats up with every one being so short tempered if someone says something wrong
Because this is a serious topic, everyone complained about how they could not have their say in the matter because it was initially only discussed in the Advanced Forum, and you are an idiot and you show us exactly why we should have kept it in the Advanced Forum exclusively. How do you even want to be taken seriously when you ask why we are not contemplating banning Earth ...
Ok,as I can see in your results,Earth is severely outclassed,can we compare results with Libra ?If the win rates are not so good,then ban Basalt for a while and observe the metagame.
(Aug. 14, 2011 4:17 AM)RustyXD Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with B : D not being the solution , as it is not going to be released and tested for a while and it might not even be that good.(Doubt it though).
I would like to bring up the fact of new releases , what are we going to test them against? Take this for example
MF-F Fang Pegasis II 100RF (Ctr. mode) vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145CS
Fang: 19 wins (95% win rate)
Earth: 1 win (5% win rate)
MF-F Fang Pegasis II 100RF (Ctr. mode) vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RS
Fang: 15 wins (75% win rate)
Earth: 5 wins (25% win rate)
Even on RS earth was mauled , so what win rates do you expect beat to get or when something new is released and preforms beastly?
BTW I find that beat defeats the dominating basalt combos.
(Aug. 14, 2011 4:17 AM)RustyXD Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with B : D not being the solution , as it is not going to be released and tested for a while and it might not even be that good.(Doubt it though).
I would like to bring up the fact of new releases , what are we going to test them against? Take this for example
MF-F Fang Pegasis II 100RF (Ctr. mode) vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145CS
Fang: 19 wins (95% win rate)
Earth: 1 win (5% win rate)
MF-F Fang Pegasis II 100RF (Ctr. mode) vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RS
Fang: 15 wins (75% win rate)
Earth: 5 wins (25% win rate)
Even on RS earth was mauled , so what win rates do you expect beat to get or when something new is released and preforms beastly?
BTW I find that beat defeats the dominating basalt combos.
If this can be tested with Libra, that'd be helpful.
But yeah, B:D won't change much, because it'd likely benefit Basalt too, would it not? So that really seems counter-productive. That should be a time where you think of re-introduction, not banning.
On another note:
When you look at the "Don't change the rules" votes, I see about ten members who likely know what they're saying. The rest seem to be in the "It's a challenge!" stage where they think of themselves using Basalt, not how Basalt affects the metagame. It is very disappointing that some members cannot look past themselves and understand how Basalt is affecting the metagame. When a wheel dominates on two fronts, and is the only Balance wheel that really exists, then you have an issue. Basalt is one such wheel. End of story.
Such members as who?Yes,Basalt is just one such wheel,and I do know that most people say it should not be banned,without elaborating.They just want to win for themselves,and don't care about the metagame.
The same thing happened with Libra , a majority of people voted for it to stay but half of them didn't no what they were talking about so it was banned as more people who knew what they were saying voted for that.
Not my test took them out of the fang discussion. Basalt isn't the only balance wheel , I would say meteo and hell could classify as balance as well. Finally I would like to point out that there is a fair few combos that can take down MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145/TH170/230CS , such as MF Beat Lynx R145R2F , MF Meteo L Drago CH120XF , MF Lightning L Drago BD145LRF ect.
I still can make a 100% decision if i think it should be banned or not.
(Aug. 14, 2011 4:41 AM)Whatzzer Wrote: [ -> ]Such members as who?Yes,Basalt is just one such wheel,and I do know that most people say it should not be banned,without elaborating.They just want to win for themselves,and don't care about the metagame.
To, Bluezee, Otsu and the like. I guess you know what you're talking about. You're normally helpful.
Frankly, the Libra thing was sad. So many people said "Don't ban it!" when they hadn't seen what the thing could even DO asides from it's failure on Driger GT's video vs. Quetz 90RF.
Fang? Geez, that thing has some SMASH to it. I like Fang, but I can't see two wheels saving Basalt. Beat and Fang are great, but not much else KOs the sheer weight and Stamina of MF-H Basalt BD145MB. The thing spins for quite a while, and is hard to KO.
Basalt has a few weakness , it looses to scythe in stamina matches , it looses to LDD , LLD , Beat , Fang? , VariAres? , Blitz? ect.(? = Im not to sure about). If basalt is banned doesn't that make heaps of other attack wheels top tier since they have no trouble with Libra? Big Bang Pegasus TH220RF beats MF Libra BD145CS , which would most likely be the top defense combo if basalt is banned.
Finally the advance forum is getting to the point that Scythe owns Basalt.
here is my opinion i do not think we should ban basalt however put a wait limit on basalt. by doing that you are giving attack types a little advantage and basalt users a fair disadvantage
50-60% isn't owns, though. Beating something and outclassing something are two totally different things. Frankly, one or two wheels are not enough. If it constantly places 1st or 2nd, something is wrong in my eyes. Maybe I'm wrong, but the last few tournaments have been very Basalt-heavy. (Pun not intended.)
(Aug. 14, 2011 5:00 AM)chrisfire360 Wrote: [ -> ]here is my opinion i do not think we should ban basalt however put a wait limit on basalt. by doing that you are giving attack types a little advantage and basalt users a fair disadvantage
Read my first post in this topic : it is not feasible to do a weight limit. Or a "wait limit" either.
By owns I meant in a tournament situation (Should have mention that). I think I wrote it but at Bey-Freeze I went up against heaps basalt combos and Scythe won every match except one. Scythe is more reliable in a tournament situation because MF-H Basalt BD145CS gets OS by LTSC's and Basalt stamina combos get OS buy Earth stamina combos. I did not mean to say Scythe is the greatest and its in a league of its own , what i meant was Scythe is on par /Slightly better then basalt in terms of stamina and against 1 of the 3 dominating basalt combos. The 230 combo gets beat by any good 145 height attacker and and the TH170 versions gets about 50% against any great LTAC or 145 height attacker.
(Aug. 14, 2011 5:08 AM)Kai-V Wrote: [ -> ] (Aug. 14, 2011 5:00 AM)chrisfire360 Wrote: [ -> ]here is my opinion i do not think we should ban basalt however put a wait limit on basalt. by doing that you are giving attack types a little advantage and basalt users a fair disadvantage
Read my first post in this topic : it is not feasible to do a weight limit. Or a "wait limit" either.
oh sorry wasnt looking
Yes,really,most of the people who wins uses Basalt,such as Valentin,but however even if this is considered,most of them were too scared to use Attack since Basalt was dominating before LLDBD145LRF was borned.
chrisfire360:-Doing it would be meaningless,the heaviest combo,MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145MB can be beaten easily by MFLLDBD145LRF,that is why we are discussing on Banning it entirely,not weight limit like Libra which was banned entirely to balance the whole metagame.
When Valentin came second Scythe was not released. Basalt is still domination tournaments that's a reason why people want it banned , not many people are using Lightning L Drago BD145LRF is because it is to risky.
To people who thinks attack will dominate after bassalt is banned: think about it. When bassalt is not around, there are few people who uses atk. A lot of skill is required which takes months of practice, but, stamina types can be easily launched. Some uses RS,CS,RSF cuz at that time vulcan was awesome against WB,not so much VS CS or any other rubber defence bottoms. It was a metagame at that moments. Than bassalt came, and the metagame fell. Stamina won't beat bassalt BD145MB, apart from sytche,even that loses to bassalt sometimes. It is too heavy for attack to beat it, and the ones that can requires confidence, risk and skill. Banning it is the fair way to go.
(Aug. 14, 2011 5:19 AM)Shika blade Wrote: [ -> ]To people who thinks attack will dominate after bassalt is banned: think about it. When bassalt is not around, there are few people who uses atk. A lot of skill is required which takes months of practice, but, stamina types can be easily launched. Some uses RS,CS,RSF cuz at that time vulcan was awesome against WB,not so much VS CS or any other rubber defence bottoms. It was a metagame at that moments. Than bassalt came, and the metagame fell. Stamina won't beat bassalt BD145MB, apart from sytche,even that loses to bassalt sometimes. It is too heavy for attack to beat it, and the ones that can requires confidence, risk and skill. Banning it is the fair way to go.
see this is the thing everyone is saying give attack a huge advantage so ban basalt but doing this you basically take away the defence tiers. think about it, earth isnt great for defence, not a lot of people own libra, and face it without basalt, there is no defence type that is reliable enough. there still is use for attack types they crush 90% of stamina types. stamina beats 90% of defence types. defence beats attack. if you ban basalt attack will destroy the tiers. it isnt about how many people can use attack types well, its that attack types themselves will dominate
(Aug. 14, 2011 5:34 AM)chrisfire360 Wrote: [ -> ]it isnt about how many people can use attack types well, its that attack types themselves will dominate
Something cannot dominate if it is not spread, if not a lot of people use it ... Think about it.
The thing is not many people use attack types because they are to risky in a tournament situation. If basalt is banned the metagame won't be attack orientated.
sooner or later people will learn to use attack types at high levels
(Aug. 14, 2011 5:34 AM)chrisfire360 Wrote: [ -> ]see this is the thing everyone is saying give attack a huge advantage so ban basalt but doing this you basically take away the defence tiers. think about it, earth isnt great for defence, not a lot of people own libra, and face it without basalt, there is no defence type that is reliable enough. there still is use for attack types they crush 90% of stamina types. stamina beats 90% of defence types. defence beats attack. if you ban basalt attack will destroy the tiers. it isnt about how many people can use attack types well, its that attack types themselves will dominate
Earth is serviceable, and it's not that hard to get Libra. Also, another main point is that Basalt made so many parts useless. Earth, Burn, even Virgo. Vulcan, Leone, and a bunch more also took bad/death hits from Basalt. Sure Defense beats attack, but Basalt beats Stamina too. That's one of Kei's main points. It's by far the best Balance wheel, in the sense that it dominates Stamina and Defense.