Hmmm, I still think the whole deal would be the best.
Yeah, I'm stubborn, hah.
It does sound like a compromise that's equal for both sides, but how much does that open up in the game though? Someone tell me since I'm no tournament goer.
Didn't we say it's too much for the tournament organizers to deal with that? Or is BD145 simple enough?
Even though i'm still for a full ban, it is tempting. Someone try to tempt me more.
Edit: I really like Hazel's point.
The point is that it opens up the possibility for other Defense customs besides MF-H Basalt BD145CS/MB. Let's face it: most people won't use MF-H Basalt 85RS unless they are absolutely sure their opponent is using an Attack type.
Additionally, not completely banning Basalt (yet) allows for there to still be competition among Stamina Wheels. Without Basalt, Scythe would be alone at the top. Phantom could change this, but we'll have to wait and see how that turns out. If Phantom ends up being better than Basalt, I would then advocate a complete ban on Basalt.
I know it's not too hard to deal with if you're using an attack type, but what about Basalt 230/TH170?
I'm uncertain, if I were for banning basalt it would be all or nothing. Actually, this may sound very silly but I'd much rather ban basalt stamina combinations than defense. I'm certain those are used much more than a pure defense basalt. It would be able to beat many different stamina combinations, defense combinations and could be weak launched to beat left-spin attackers. Defense is just defense and can for the most part still be defeated by earth stamina combinations and VariAres. Is this silly, haha?
If a defensive Basalt can be defeated by VariAres, why can't a Stamina-based one?
It can, I only mentioned that the basalt stamina combination would win against left, leaving right spin attackers in the go. (being able to win)I mentioned VariAres because I was talking about the defense combo. (how even specific attackers can still >basalt defense.)
I think you should have assumed such, it is obvious that right spin Vari can beat basalt stamina even when basalt is weak launched.
(Sep. 21, 2011 12:30 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]The point is that it opens up the possibility for other Defense customs besides MF-H Basalt BD145CS/MB. Let's face it: most people won't use MF-H Basalt 85RS unless they are absolutely sure their opponent is using an Attack type.
hmm, has 85CS or 85MB been shown to be closely as effective as 85RS? And as
momiji Pimpju said, Basalt TH170 and 230? There's three others, and Basalt would still be a dominant force, still more so than other wheels. Would someone use Libra or Earth 85(possibly), TH170, 230? Probably not. BD145 would be the main use for those though.
It's still a
Use Basalt to get far situation.
Kei Wrote:Additionally, not completely banning Basalt (yet) allows for there to still be competition among Stamina Wheels. Without Basalt, Scythe would be alone at the top. Phantom could change this, but we'll have to wait and see how that turns out. If Phantom ends up being better than Basalt, I would then advocate a complete ban on Basalt.
Hmm, Scythe definitely works well for stamina on multiple heights with multiple bottoms. I can think of BD145, TH170, and 230; EDS, D, CS. Possibly 85? I haven't seen 85 yet though, nor do I even have scythe. Plus Basalt TH170, I'm sure it can beat Scythe 230 and Scythe TH170 can beat Basalt 230.
The way I see it is that there are 3 things that are being overly used currently.
MW = Basalt
Track = BD145
Bottom = CS
Considering CS is different from one another, it's not an issue, which leaves Basalt and BD145. Like Kei said, when that set up is banned, it would render MF-H Basalt BD145CS/MB illegal, which is nice also. However, it will leave Scythe BD145 rule supreme in the stamina section.
I think the metagame is quite balanced as it is (without the ban). It's just somewhat still Basalt-redundant, since most still have no access to scythe yet, or B
for that matter.
So, let's not be hasty, and wait. It's not a good thing to put a pause on anything and move backward. Let's just evolve and discover new monster combos with the upcoming releases.
(Sep. 21, 2011 1:34 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]It can, I only mentioned that the basalt stamina combination would win against left, leaving right spin attackers in the go. (being able to win)I mentioned VariAres because I was talking about the defense combo. (how even specific attackers can still >basalt defense.)
I think you should have assumed such, it is obvious that right spin Vari can beat basalt stamina even when basalt is weak launched.
I can't really assume anything ... I'm still not completely clear on what you're trying to say. You're right that pure Defense types with Basalt are rarely used, but Basalt BD145CS/MB are undeniably the most prominent Basalt-based customisations - much more so than anything explicitly Defense
or Stamina-based. We know that anything of a Stamina persuasion can be defeated by Attack Customisations, and Scythe as well. Pure Defense, as Kei mentioned, is something like MF-H Basalt Kerbecs 85RS, and this is again handled easily by Stamina customisations. Essentially, I'm of the opinion that something like MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS is the most dominant customisation we have right now, and it is an absolutely headache to deal with in our current situation.
(Sep. 21, 2011 1:45 AM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ] (Sep. 21, 2011 12:30 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]The point is that it opens up the possibility for other Defense customs besides MF-H Basalt BD145CS/MB. Let's face it: most people won't use MF-H Basalt 85RS unless they are absolutely sure their opponent is using an Attack type.
hmm, has 85CS or 85MB been shown to be closely as effective as 85RS? And as momiji Pimpju said, Basalt TH170 and 230? There's three others, and Basalt would still be a dominant force, still more so than other wheels. Would someone use Libra or Earth 85(possibly), TH170, 230? Probably not. BD145 would be the main use for those though.
It's still a Use Basalt to get far situation.
While it's both difficult and dangerous to try to enforce shifts in the metagame, the purpose of this newer proposal is to promote other Defense Wheels like Earth and Libra. As you mentioned, the real advantage of using these Wheels is with BD145. What this means is that Defense can now be developed with more variety: do you pick the pure defensive strength of something like MF-H Basalt Kerbecs 85RS, or something like MF-H Libra BD145CS which, not only outspins the former, but is also a relatively viable Defense customisation in its own right. That's what we're trying to address here really, to open up more diversity and allow people to make more choices.
(Sep. 21, 2011 3:33 PM)♥ Wrote: [ -> ]While it's both difficult and dangerous to try to enforce shifts in the metagame, the purpose of this newer proposal is to promote other Defense Wheels like Earth and Libra. As you mentioned, the real advantage of using these Wheels is with BD145. What this means is that Defense can now be developed with more variety: do you pick the pure defensive strength of something like MF-H Basalt Kerbecs 85RS, or something like MF-H Libra BD145CS which, not only outspins the former, but is also a relatively viable Defense customisation in its own right. That's what we're trying to address here really, to open up more diversity and allow people to make more choices.
I actually agree. But for some reason I just can't get over the thought that a full ban opens up even more than that. Sort of like a all or nothing I guess?
But the people who I see who think that ban is not necessary are people who are frequent at tournaments; whereas I haven't even been to
one, so I could possibly be being naive?
I do still think that no Basalt would be best though, but what matters more is the people who it will actually affect.
(Sep. 21, 2011 11:35 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]I do still think that no Basalt would be best though, but what matters more is the people who it will actually affect.
No Basalt would be 'best' in theory, I agree. As someone who has been abusing Basalt TH170 variants, I know better than most how ridiculously good it can be especially when not many other people have access to TH170 yet. However, the problem right now is that a complete ban on Basalt would leave Scythe as the only competitively viable Stamina Wheel. I cannot advocate this. Like with Basalt being the only option for Defense, this would not be healthy for the game.
However, like I said in my previous post:
Kei Wrote:If Phantom ends up being better than Basalt, I would then advocate a complete ban on Basalt.
(Sep. 21, 2011 3:33 PM)♥ Wrote: [ -> ]Essentially, I'm of the opinion that something like MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS is the most dominant customisation we have right now, and it is an absolutely headache to deal with in our current situation.
I have a non-TH170 multipurpose stamina combo (not just a counter) that eats this for breakfast. Surely others will discover it sooner or later...
(Sep. 22, 2011 2:15 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]As someone who has been abusing Basalt TH170 variants, I know better than most how ridiculously good it can be especially when not many other people have access to TH170 yet.
I'm also a Basalt TH170 abuser - and the MD metagame has caught on. Last Sunday there were 4 other copies of my (and othellog's) main combo in play. So, there were a couple of mirror matches - but they were ultimately won by the more skilled bladers. We don't see Basalt BD145 very much anymore.
(Sep. 22, 2011 2:15 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]However, the problem right now is that a complete ban on Basalt would leave Scythe as the only competitively viable Stamina Wheel. I cannot advocate this. Like with Basalt being the only option for Defense, this would not be healthy for the game.
However, like I said in my previous post:
Kei Wrote:If Phantom ends up being better than Basalt, I would then advocate a complete ban on Basalt.
This part of your logic confuses me a little bit. If Scythe and Phantom are both viable stamina wheels, why do we need to Ban Basalt?
And BTW, at
Better than School!, nerfblader721 used a Scythe combo that beat every Basalt variant in play in a field of 40 bladers (including, sadly, mine). My feeling is that we will see more scythe combos emerging in the very near future at the expense of Basalt bladers. If you couple that with bearing drive, Basalt BD145 doesn't stand a chance.
(Sep. 23, 2011 12:04 AM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ] (Sep. 21, 2011 1:34 AM)♥ Wrote: [ -> ]Essentially, I'm of the opinion that something like MF-H Basalt Kerbecs BD145CS is the most dominant customisation we have right now, and it is an absolutely headache to deal with in our current situation.
I have a multipurpose combo (not just a counter) that eats this for breakfast. Surely others will discover it sooner or later...
MF VariAres CH120RF whats new. lol better yet: Earth 100WD.
(Sep. 22, 2011 2:15 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]However, the problem right now is that a complete ban on Basalt would leave Scythe as the only competitively viable Stamina Wheel. I cannot advocate this. Like with Basalt being the only option for Defense, this would not be healthy for the game.
However, like I said in my previous post:
Kei Wrote:If Phantom ends up being better than Basalt, I would then advocate a complete ban on Basalt.
Quote:This part of your logic confuses me a little bit. If Scythe and Phantom are both viable stamina wheels, why do we need to Ban Basalt?
And BTW, at Better than School!, nerfblader721 used a Scythe combo that beat every Basalt variant in play in a field of 40 bladers (including, sadly, mine).
Very cool!
Also, yeah I don't see anything wrong with Scythe doing better than other stamina combinations. That would sure be better than Basalt dominating in 2 fields.
(Sep. 23, 2011 12:04 AM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ]This part of your logic confuses me a little bit. If Scythe and Phantom are both viable stamina wheels, why do we need to Ban Basalt?
Because as it stands right now, I personally
want an outright ban on Basalt, but it would be foolish to do such a thing if Phantom did not have a comparable amount of Stamina to Scythe.
edit: Also, Dan, Basalt dominates in
all fields. Defense, Stamina (depending on the situation, it can still beat Scythe), Balance (TH170 variants), and Attack (anti-meta, but still).
(Sep. 23, 2011 12:07 AM)Dan Wrote: [ -> ]MF VariAres CH120RF whats new. lol better yet: Earth 100WD.
i was looking at this topic without particcular attention and then i read this.
if your earth 100 wd beats your basalt bd145 cs you have a TERRIBLE cs.
sorry for the ot=P
.. I don't see how that is at all: Earth is destabilizing BD145, and considering Earth has little knock-back it wouldn't be taking more that it would be dishing out so I constantly get 100% win rates with it and an astronomical amount of spin left over. (I've used multiple CS' though I didn't test it with another party, so that could be the difference. :V)
(Sep. 23, 2011 1:20 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ] (Sep. 23, 2011 12:04 AM)Arupaeo Wrote: [ -> ]This part of your logic confuses me a little bit. If Scythe and Phantom are both viable stamina wheels, why do we need to Ban Basalt?
Because as it stands right now, I personally want an outright ban on Basalt, but it would be foolish to do such a thing if Phantom did not have a comparable amount of Stamina to Scythe.
edit: Also, Dan, Basalt dominates in all fields. Defense, Stamina (depending on the situation, it can still beat Scythe), Balance (TH170 variants), and Attack (anti-meta, but still).
I'm going to go ahead and revive this discussion, in light of Phantom's clearly evident capabilities as a Stamina Wheel. Several users are reporting it becoming a dominant force in their local tournaments, we've seen people win events with it, and in testing it is showing to be comparable, if not superior to, Scythe.
Does this not put the final nail in the coffin, given the guidelines you'd set, Kei?
Okay so I still don't have a lot of parts but I got my hands on Basalt and it seems like it's not that hard to defeat. KO Stamina based variations and OS or KO Defense based variations. It's seems better than Earth by a considerable amount but not unreasonably so.
/preliminary findings
Basalt BD145CS
Basalt TH170CS/D/whateva
Basalt GB145WD (god damn snot-green aquario)lol
If you take Attack out the equation (since it is such a minority in tournaments) and add that only until recently did we have a stamina wheel that could consistently defeat it, Basalt was really you only choice because attack is '2 hard 2 use' and stamina types could only beat it some of the time.
maybe I got this wrong?
Basically a bunch of Basalt combos could beat most beys on either side of the spectrum, and dominate in two of them.. which isn't wanted.
I've found that most people are not as inclined to use Basalt any longer because it's no longer dominant in both Defense
and Stamina, which was one of the original reasons why I brought up this question.
A few months ago I did say:
Kei Wrote:The point is that it opens up the possibility for other Defense customs besides MF-H Basalt BD145CS/MB. Let's face it: most people won't use MF-H Basalt 85RS unless they are absolutely sure their opponent is using an Attack type.
Additionally, not completely banning Basalt (yet) allows for there to still be competition among Stamina Wheels. Without Basalt, Scythe would be alone at the top. Phantom could change this, but we'll have to wait and see how that turns out. If Phantom ends up being better than Basalt, I would then advocate a complete ban on Basalt.
But I'm starting to think otherwise because, if people are hesitant to use Basalt BD145CS as much as they have in the past (which they are) because of the prevalence of Phantom/Scythe, then what is the problem?
I agree. The case for banning Basalt declines month by month as more and more bladers are turning to Scythe and Phantom as their stamina wheels of choice (myself included).
Basalt is still present at the MD tournaments, but is steadily declining in popularity and absolutely not the dominant wheel here any longer.
Yeah, I'd been noticing a rather sharp decline in Basalt mention for anything but testing purposes, too. Phantom's risen to the challenge of Defense on par with Basalt, and vastly exceeded it in Stamina, so overall I think we're good now!
Good thing I voted for "Don't change the rules" forever ago!
I can't seriously believe I read that there's a wheel that makes Libra obsolete. The power creep must be insane in MFB.
(Dec. 29, 2011 2:21 AM)Synesthesia Wrote: [ -> ]I can't seriously believe I read that there's a wheel that makes Libra obsolete. The power creep must be insane in MFB.
lol, well if you tak a look at weights of recents beyblade you'll be scared to death =P
(Dec. 29, 2011 2:21 AM)Synesthesia Wrote: [ -> ]I can't seriously believe I read that there's a wheel that makes Libra obsolete. The power creep must be insane in MFB.
Basically every Wheel is 40g+ now lol, some even more