I want to remind everyone that
if Basalt is banned, it would be–like the Libra ban–by no means permanent. We do not know what the future holds.
(Aug. 10, 2011 7:25 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]To me basalt 230/BD145 cs/mb is a dominant balance type.
To me it seems like basalt is almost always a balance combo, no matter what it's paired with.
I agree, and this is the problem. Balance types should never be this powerful, and they never have been in the past. 10bBistool is nothing compared to MF-H Basalt Aquario TH170CS or some variant of that. As you mentioned, Attack types are and should be, the "true Balancers", but this is made impossible by Basalt.
(Aug. 11, 2011 5:44 AM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: [ -> ]The only problem with Basalt is that stamina types can't beat it. If B : D can then I see no problem. Even if people threw Basalt on B : D, attack types would still be able to KO that, no? All this is guesswork though.
As of right now, regardless of whether or not Basalt should be banned, I think if it were the game would be more fun.
Exactly. As I said in the OP:
Kei Wrote:To me, it simply doesn't make sense that we should allow a Metal Wheel that is undeniably the absolute best in two categories–Defense and Stamina (not to mention it's use in "anti-meta" Attack)–to exist in competitive play. Think about everything that it makes obsolete (or near obsolete): Virgo, Libra, Earth, Burn, Flame, and Scythe.
If Scythe was the undisputed best Stamina Wheel available right now, then things would not be nearly as bad, but that isn't the case. The game would me much more wide open, fun and skill-based than it is now if Basalt was banned.
However, as ikmv stated, not enough people have tested Scythe yet. I personally have it placed below Basalt after extensive testing, but we need more tests from different people before anything can be confirmed.
(Aug. 11, 2011 6:19 AM)Uwik Wrote: [ -> ]1. I don't think Basalt is on the same level as Libra was. Libra was indeed very tough for its era, and even WBBA had issues with it, which might have resulted in TT producing 'worse' mold (Mold 3) on purpose after the release of BB-36 Metal Face. The fact is when Basalt was released as part of the maximum series, its weight was the main selling point. This should indicate enough that everything about Basalt is intentional (weight / size/ shape). Added to that, there are combinations that are able to defeat Basalt, even if it's with some degrees of difficulties.
You're right; Basalt is not on the same level as Libra was. It's on a much higher level. I went over this in the OP, but I'll re-state it here: even Libra was not the absolute best Stamina Wheel in addition to being the best Defense Wheel when it was at the top of the metagame. Basalt is.
Of course it was intentional, who wouldn't want to own Basalt? It's ridiculously good ... but does it mean that it is good for the game? And again, as I stated in the OP:
Kei Wrote:Counters do indeed exist, but what I'm trying to emphasize is that despite it's fallibility, it is still overpowered in general. Libra wasn't unbeatable either, but we still banned it.
edit: Just want to ask, which "counters" are you referring to? There are counters to specific customizations that use Basalt, but the main problem is that there is nothing that can beat Basalt in pure endurance and defensive ability (not to mention it's use in anti-meta Attack customs, as I stated in the OP).
By the way, is Mold 3 Libra actually worse than Mold 1 and 2? I haven't used mine, so I wouldn't know. I've heard it was heavier?
(Aug. 11, 2011 3:10 PM)Galaxy Wrote: [ -> ]Or you create 2 formats: one made for all Beys first of the Maximum Series\4D system and one for all the maximum Series and 4D system, or you'll create another problem made by all MWs that do the work (in attack customizations) that Basalt does in defence!
The thing I don't like about creating two different formats is that it would contaminate the rankings. It wouldn't make sense to have two separate formats competing for the same ranking (similar to why we didn't end up processing the HMS & Plastics Remembrance Day tournaments into the BeyPoint System as it stands right now).
(Aug. 11, 2011 3:10 PM)♥ Wrote: [ -> ]The main problem with Basalt, as you've already highlighted, is that it is incredibly strong in two of the main typings we've established, meaning that yes, it is difficult for Stamina to beat Defense in our current metagame.
Quoting this because I can't stress this fact enough. And don't forget it's use in anti-meta Attack.
(Aug. 11, 2011 7:25 PM)Yamislayer Wrote: [ -> ]GUYS, every pre hws bey and every hws bey before maximum series, compared to newest looks like plastic vs hms.
Just sayin'.
This is an interesting point, and on some levels I do agree, but to say HWS vs. the newest Beyblades is like Plastics vs. HMS is a bit extreme lol.
(Aug. 12, 2011 3:58 PM)♥ Wrote: [ -> ] (Aug. 12, 2011 7:03 AM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, I agree with that. Attack types will have the advantage, but there will be a very small number of players confident enough to use them in tournaments.
Agreed; we constantly throw this notion of "Attack types will dominate" whenever we discuss bans involving Basalt / Libra, but even when Libra was banned, I don't think this decimated the playing field as much as everyone likes to think.
ding ding
Letting Attack types have an "advantage" in the metagame is not a bad thing. They take more skill to use, and not everyone is going to use them because of that. I challenge someone to tell me why it would be bad for Attack to have any sort of perceived "advantage".
(Aug. 12, 2011 5:20 PM)♥ Wrote: [ -> ]Another factor we have to consider is the strength of RS/RSF, which are also difficult to knock out nearly irrespective of Wheel choice. So, there are quite a few options for Defense even without Basalt.
More QFT haha. It's been repeated a lot lately, but people just don't give enough credit to RS/RSF.
(Aug. 12, 2011 5:30 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]However, I did notice that BD145 normal mode isn't a nice fit on libra, it wobbles. can anyone else try putting those two together and see if it's the same?
I tried all of the Libra Wheels that I own (all molds) on my two BD145's and they don't feel any different on them than Basalt does. Both Basalt and the Libra's do wobble slightly, but I think that's normal?
Because of what heart wrote here:
(Aug. 12, 2011 5:20 PM)♥ Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's logistically difficult to just impose a temporary ban on Organised Play, however. It's far easier for people to just have meet ups to see what the effects are on a smaller level.
I'm leaning for basalt being banned. I don't see what harm could come out of it, because if B:D ends up doing what we assume and hope it will do, then it could just be a short ban, until the end of September/ somewhere in October. Plus it could definitely be a way to see what new combos can be used with parts released after basalt, which were ruled out due to basalt.
(Aug. 12, 2011 5:30 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]However, I did notice that BD145 normal mode isn't a nice fit on libra, it wobbles. can anyone else try putting those two together and see if it's the same?
Yes. BD145 doesn't wobble as such, but it can be pushed up towards the Wheel unevenly, if that's what you mean.
Mold 3 Libra is actually at around 46g as well, the same as its predecessors. Takara Tomy never weakened it.
I agree with the general opinion that nothing bad is likely to come from the ban, but the frustrating thing with something like this is we have to consider all the permutations we can, and we can never be sure until it is put into practice, haha.
Bluezee wanted this posted here. I dont think I should necessarily be reprimanded for putting others thoughts here, I have been PM'd many time before to incorporate others thoughts into my post (as in quote them and smack it in my post here) because they feel otherwise they won't be properly heard. Their opinion, not mine. So here it is in spoiler form:
Bluezee Wrote:As soon as Basalt was released, I knew at some point there would be a time where people would attempt to ban it. Even at that time, even after the emergence of Basalt 230 which is too easily defeated, I knew I would never want it banned. With that said, No Basalt should not be banned. Why? Well that's pretty simple. Unlike Libra, Basalt is SUPPOSED to be as good as it is. Basalt was made with the Maximum Series beyblades. The point of the Maximum Series was to bring out the full potential, or at least the accepted/top standard amount of power/ability, that a part(s) is able to have. Now I have seen points made here where some of the Maximum Series beyblades, more specifically Hell Kerbecs' Maximum Attribute, being surpassed by current 4D wheels. In some minds, that would not make sense because Maximum should indeed be the final evolution or the top standard however it is not the always the case as we can now see. 230 and Basalt have been untouched in terms of their attribute and I feel until they are surpassed, they will continue to live up to their names.
Before the 4D system, the only attack and/or stamina wheels that were able to stand up to Basalt, more specifically the current combos Basalt BD145/230, were Lightning, Meteo, Hell and Pegasis. With the exception of Hell, they were all tiny wheels that could not really put a dent in Basalt as well as they should have before their full potential was realized. I did not include Gravity because it is too inconsistent and mold changes caused more bad than good. Earth was very situational and depended on the player's launch power rather than combo ability. More specically, the only combos that would have actually done anything significant against the Basalt combos would be Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF OR Lightning L-Drago CH120/H145 RF, Meteo CH120 XF/Low Track Spin-Stealer, Hell C145RF, or Pegasis 145RF depending on the user. I could continue but the list would be too large for the moment. As you can see though, there were options and even today, they are still relevant, still producing amazing results, and still defeating Basalt.
Now on to the 4D System. Wheels like Fang, Beat, Big Bang Pegasis, L-Drago Destroy, and VariAres are made for attack. They ALL can defeat Basalt consistently with the right user and combo. More specifically, Beat and Fang are relied on most. Takara- Tomy clearly noticed Basalt becoming an issue, not as big as it is being made here of course, and I am sure they decided to make this series with larger and more powerful wheels to beat Basalt. In turn, they WORK and are very reliable. Even Scythe, one of the newer additions, stands up to Basalt EXTREMELY well stamina-wise and beats it consistently with me and others that I have seen use it however, it is not meant for every height Basalt is used for such as 230(in some cases) and TH170 therefore it will seem as though the results are not good enough to show that it is better than Basalt. Even with that said, people are still not using what has been given to them.
Now let's say Basalt is banned. Now the only things left are Earth and Libra. The problem is, they are not good enough. Earth, as now noted by many others, gets demolished by VariAres more notably than the other 4D wheels. That right there is a clear indication that it is not sufficient enough if one release destroys it not counting others that are equal to or better than Vari such as Fang, Beat, Big Bang Pegasis, etc. Defense and Stamina would be slaughtered by attack so easily it would be humourous to watch a player pull out a stamina combo because you already know what will happen. On to Libra, as Uwik said, it can not take hits directly from powerful attack wheels like Beat and Fang. It gets crushed. That definitely is not a good sign or showing any indication that it can help or maintain Defense or Stamina.
The "aura" being mentioned in regards to Basalt is COMPLETELY imaginary. Basalt is in no way intimidating to the experienced player. I, and many others I know who do not rely on deception tactics as their way of winning but more so use them ONLY if going against someone who tries to constantly abuse it, see Basalt and think, "it is just another heavy combo therefore, attack." It is only intimidating to a person who is not confident in their ability to plan out a strategy to either KO a Basalt combo or destabilize it enough to later outspin it for the win which brings me to my next and more than likely final point: Player Confidence vs. Basalt
As said by IKMV and Cye, it is not that Basalt is so dominant, the fact is, people do not have the confidence to step out of their comfort zone and find another alternative to beat Basalt. Attack is extremely efficient and IKMV and Cye, both extremely good, if not two out of the five of the best attack beybladers, can vouch for this. It is so easy to defeat Basalt when you make the proper custom. The thing is, people have frozen their minds into one state where even if they get defeated countless times by Basalt, they will not change their ways or experiment with better parts because they either do not know any better, are not skilled enough to do any better, or just are too intimidated by something they feel is unbeatable when the real issue is they are making themselves too easy to beat. Basalt never needs to be banned. People just have to get better and explore other alternatives that not only counter Basalt but are viable combos and intelligent selections in tournaments and free play. It is not right to hinder defense and stamina's ability by banning the most important part for it. Without Basalt, as some said already, attack beyblades, more specifically Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF, will dominate the current metagame. It would end up being foolish not to use attack beyblades, which people are still too afraid/unskilled to use.
Also, I would like to point out that I agree with Dan. There are plenty of members who may not be advanced but are EXTREMELY knowledgeable and should be advanced that can make decisions on banning/ not banning Basalt. It should not be left up to just a small few and then forced up people globally without them even having a chance to speak. I am not saying give them a thread to post but provide a poll and at least let them be able to have some say in what goes on and allow them to make a change in the metagame too. It is better than nothing.
I realize there is a thread for this in the general forum, but Bluezee insisted it be posted here. As would I in his position for direct communication. I'll do this for any other member unless you all feel it is wrong? Haha tbh there are a few additions to the advanced forums which have yet to be added IMO. (INB4%WARNING) lol
He could just PM it to other members?
I proposed the idea, nevertheless he PM'd me the text so I thought whatever, no big deal (unless it breaks all that the advanced forum stands for, lol) and everyone here would see it, so?
Hm, yes, especially now that the general thread exists, it should definitely have been posted there, not here.
Today at the NY tournament I saw Scythe beat Basalt several times. I'll be more specific when I can.
(Aug. 14, 2011 4:34 AM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: [ -> ]Today at the NY tournament I saw Scythe beat Basalt several times. I'll be more specific when I can.
Same here at the Toronto tournament today; particularly in Scythe BD145 vs. Basalt BD145 matches.
Yeah. Same, and also against Basalt 230, and I think 170. I'll have to ask about the 170.
I was going to respond to something in the other topic, but it led me to this:
If Scythe has the ability to outspin basalt combos, plus B : D being assumably KO-able (Plastic bottom, and the fact that even now basalt can be knocked out, makes this assumable, but obviously not a fact), then that does help reduce the basalt-ness;
hopefully (but not assuming) the ratio between those combos and basalt will be relatively equal.
Even then though, with basalt able to be taken out with a relatively easy type to use (stamina), it still creates an imbalance. People don't use attack types often which would beat Scythe, and from the tests i've seen (
although i'd really like to hear what scythe combos beat what basalt combos) scythe beats Basalt BD145 but not Basalt 230 (hmm, but it won in the NY tournament
)
So there's still an imbalance that includes basalt. Which is why I'm for basalt being banned.
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Let's just say, best possible case scenario, that B : D takes out basalt by a longshot, and few people use basalt anymore. It'd still be over a month and a half, possibly more than two months from now for this to fully take effect, so waiting for B : D to take over, even though it is the best possible case and there are chances that this will or will not happen, is taking a gamble that I think isn't worth it.
I don't see why you're so disturbed by the shift in the metagame. If the progression of Metal Fight Beyblade has shown us anything it's the shift of type dominance. Just because battles with a certain wheel have been arbitrarily declared 'boring' doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. If Defense/Stamina take over for a short while (I don't believe it's the case) then so be it. To be frank most Beybattles aren't interesting to watch anyways.
Well, IMO it shouldn't be assessed by things that could possibly come out in the future, and by things that could or would possibly make a change. It wouldnt be stuck banned, the idea, as with libra, is to take away the problem until those shifts actually happen, in order to keep the progression and plain old fun of the game less about beating those combos, and more about diversity. Then it gets unbanned and reintroduced when parts are capable of handling it, that way while we're waiting for changes, different opportunities in the game arise.
Out of curiosity, does anyone care to elaborate as to why double format is out of the question? The winners would earn their place amongst their peers anyway, regardless of the format, and should deserve the bey points/ranks for their efforts.
I mean, just looking ahead, what will happen to the current points/ranks, if beyblades should evolve into a completely different system? It did with plastic -> hms. Will you throw away the current points/rank and start from zero?
For what it's worth, the plastic/hms remembrance events should have been processed. They fulfilled all the requirements needed to be WBO sanctioned, and definitely, the competitive atmosphere was there.
Imo, now would be the perfect time to start considering this.
There's two things I personally don't like about the double format as compared to banning basalt
1) how would basalt not dominate even more in the maximum and newer format than what it does now?
Several parts that can beat basalt now (whether they get used or not), would be gone, leaving a bigger opportunity for basalt.
2) I just don't like the feeling that I'm getting of going back in time. That doesn't help the game progress; and grow to be able to beat basalt/balance things out.
I'm not going to speak for the Rankings and points, because first I don't know fully how they work, and second I don't really think that's my choice to make.
(Aug. 14, 2011 5:47 AM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]Well, IMO it shouldn't be assessed by things that could possibly come out in the future, and by things that could or would possibly make a change. It wouldnt be stuck banned, the idea, as with libra, is to take away the problem until those shifts actually happen, in order to keep the progression and plain old fun of the game less about beating those combos, and more about diversity. Then it gets unbanned and reintroduced when parts are capable of handling it, that way while we're waiting for changes, different opportunities in the game arise.
Libra was banned much longer than it ever needed to be.
As soon as LLDrago came out it should have been unbanned but that didn't happen (I think it got banned after it's release : \).
Then let's not make basalt banned longer than it needs to be.
We have the advanced forum, the winning combination topic, and the whole customization forum to talk about the ban as it goes along.
(Aug. 14, 2011 6:19 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]There's two things I personally don't like about the double format as compared to banning basalt
1) how would basalt not dominate even more in the maximum and newer format than what it does now?
Several parts that can beat basalt now (whether they get used or not), would be gone, leaving a bigger opportunity for basalt.
2) I just don't like the feeling that I'm getting of going back in time. That doesn't help the game progress; and grow to be able to beat basalt/balance things out.
Although I've been banging on about the logistics of implementing a double format, I understand how it might not necessarily be the most pertinent or relevant point for many of you; but the two reasons Shabalabadoo has outlined here are incredibly good Beyblading ones against it.
i wrote a wrong thing: obviously it's pre maximum format and everything format
After looking at Blitz's video of his last meet-up without Basalt. I saw Hells, Gravities, LLDs, Libras, and 4Ds. The use of 4Ds are to be expected of course. Other than that, the rest are still just the usual combinations. Not a big jump in diversity even without Basalt.
Although, it seemed like more attacks are being used more than usual, I think that it was just a temporary hype without Basalt. People would start using stam / def again after a few meet-ups.
Hey guys, can you play Basalt 230 CS vs Schyte 230 CS and\or Basalt 230 CS vs Schyte xx MF ?
I would know your results,then i'll talk
So, where does this stand as of now? It's been about half a month since the last post, so is this being left for now; or is banning being considered in the near future? (Directed towards any committee member)
(Sep. 06, 2011 12:51 AM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: [ -> ]So, where does this stand as of now? It's been about half a month since the last post, so is this being left for now; or is banning being considered in the near future? (Directed towards any committee member)
I've essentially been on vacation since August 17th up until this weekend, so I haven't had any time to discuss it with the Committee ...
What's imperative right now is to definitively figure out whether Scythe is superior to Basalt in terms of Stamina or not. However, I have been thinking that this may not even be an issue because if you think about it ... evidently, both Scythe and Basalt are evenly matched (or close to it), with the major deciding factors often being the parts each Wheel is using and the launch power of each Wheel's user. If Basalt was banned, what would be close to Scythe in terms of pure Stamina? Nothing (Phantom Orion could change this, but that is irrelevant until it has been released and tested), as far as I know.
I can't speak for other members, but I'd feel way more comfortable and confident using an attack type against scythe than basalt.
But thats not the case for everyone.
What I would potentially see(If basalt were banned), is possibly a attack>stamina>defense>attack.
I'm going to use the best example of each type that comes to mind.
VariAres can beat Scythe no problem. I don't see people that enough people will be confident against Libra BD145 RS/RSF/CS though, even though it's completely possible and VariAres would be the part to do it. (Attack>Stamina)
From what I've seen, Scythe BD145EDS is the best stamina type right now(not including basalt). If basalt were banned, what would be left for stamina other than Scythe would be earth. I'm pretty sure Scythe can beat earth. What would be left for Defense would be Libra BD145 RS/RSF/CS. Yeah earth sucks for defense. I don't like it. 230 sucks without basalt from what I've tested. So, Scythe BD145EDS can definitely beat Libra BD145RS/RSF/CS. (Stamina>defense)
The only wheel that I think anyone would be confident in using to beat Libra BD145 RS/RSF/CS would be VariAres. The rest of attack partially struggles, VariAres is the man. But so many people aren't comfortable with attack types even with good odds. So let's leave it at: (Defense Generallybeats Attack)
But then there's the all around versatility of combos, and unconfidence; so I could be completely 100% wrong.
Yeah so I still think it possibly is better to ban Basalt. My opinion though.
If Basalt is banned it won't all of a sudden stay at Defense>Attack. Libra is about 10 grams lighter than Basalt, Lightning can KO all the Libra variants quiet well. VariAres would just be overkill. I don't think people will ever be really inclined to use attack ever, no matter what is available to them. The thought of them messing up a shot or two in a pressuring atmosphere is just too haunting, I guess. The gap between other defense wheels and Basalt is a/the real problem and when you remove it, all hell breaks loose in the other categories because of that leeway given.
If Scythe can consistently beat Basalt variants, and so can VariAres + a couple other releases, I think we're good.