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So did you win with Neptune at all, even just one match? Technically that qualifies to be listed under your winning combinations, if that is the case.
Kei should also have Wyvern Gravity/Heavy Unite (not sure which disk he used) on his winning combos list, cuz he beat me with that (I used VHU, brand new Unite, which is why I mentioned not using a new unite haha, i legit just self KOed after I made little to no contact with Kei's Wyvern)
(Apr. 17, 2016  3:07 AM)Mitsu Wrote: [ -> ]2nd place: Kei
Valkyrie Limited Xtreme
Deathscyther Heavy Defense
Deathscyther Heavy Gyro

You forgot to list Wyvern Gravity Unite, which I had used to defeat 1234beyblade during block play. To my surprise, 1234beyblade actually came up against me during that match with Valkyrie + Unite, but I think his Unite ended up being more aggressive than he had wanted. I really like WGU for Defense because it allows you to choose from several different strategies: sit in the middle against Attack if you opponent doesn't have the ability to bank well, or if you think you can take hits against their combo, or stall around the tornado ridge–at a speed faster than even something like Zephyr or maybe even Xtreme–to try and avoid them. This second strategy can also be used if you come up against a staller like Deathscyther + Zephyr and you'll still have a chance to KO them since you can ride the ridge at such a high speed. Only used the combo that one time today, but was very happy with how it performed!

It was definitely interesting to see how much Wyvern was going around today in general. As Mitsu mentioned there was also a lot of stationary Valkyrie going around however, so that might explain why things like Wyvern Heavy Revolve were seen quite often. Interestingly, I don't think there was anyone who used Valkyrie Xtreme today other than myself; was surprised after seeing how dominant alongside DHD it was while I was in Japan (@[ThermalG] however did use XHX and had success against Wyvern. I actually think Xcalibur might be better against Wyvern than Valkyrie).

I'd agree that none of the Dual Layers right now seem to show a huge amount of promise, but I think Victory Valkyrie certainly has its merits as a Layer that is similar to Xcalibur, and I actually haven't given up on Storm Spriggan yet either. That said, I admittedly haven't even tried Rising Ragnaruk yet lol.

Anyways, hugely enjoyed this event and can't wait for the next one! Burst is so much fun.

(Apr. 17, 2016  3:38 AM)1234beyblade Wrote: [ -> ]Kei should also have Wyvern Gravity/Heavy Unite (not sure which disk he used) on his winning combos list, cuz he beat me with that (I used VHU, brand new Unite, which is why I mentioned not using a new unite haha, i legit just self KOed after I made little to no contact with Kei's Wyvern)

I think I KOed you in at least a couple of the rounds haha
(Apr. 17, 2016  3:07 AM)Mitsu Wrote: [ -> ]The metagame is really well balanced and it felt a lot like ZANKYE 100K which took place a few months ago; Deathscyther, Valkyrie and Wyvern were the most prominent.

What about this winning combos list strikes you as well-balanced? Feel like with the constant advancement of Stamina-type Drivers that are improving in both Defense and Stamina capabilities, and with the the Dual Layers seemingly doing nothing to improve Attack-type's potential, we're in a similar situation as we were pre-Odin ban.
Probably the illusion of multiple Layers on top of that same tip.
(Apr. 17, 2016  4:18 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ]
(Apr. 17, 2016  3:07 AM)Mitsu Wrote: [ -> ]The metagame is really well balanced and it felt a lot like ZANKYE 100K which took place a few months ago; Deathscyther, Valkyrie and Wyvern were the most prominent.

What about this winning combos list strikes you as well-balanced? Feel like with the constant advancement of Stamina-type Drivers that are improving in both Defense and Stamina capabilities, and with the the Dual Layers seemingly doing nothing to improve Attack-type's potential, we're in a similar situation as we were pre-Odin ban.
This is the exact same fear I have after seeing their combos, hopefully it's just because some set ups haven't been explored enough or everyone was just playing conservative. If it wasn't one of those things then this meta looks very boring and not fun what so ever, talk about Odin format being a drag. Stamina everywhere.
(Apr. 17, 2016  4:30 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: [ -> ]
(Apr. 17, 2016  4:18 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ]
(Apr. 17, 2016  3:07 AM)Mitsu Wrote: [ -> ]The metagame is really well balanced and it felt a lot like ZANKYE 100K which took place a few months ago; Deathscyther, Valkyrie and Wyvern were the most prominent.

What about this winning combos list strikes you as well-balanced? Feel like with the constant advancement of Stamina-type Drivers that are improving in both Defense and Stamina capabilities, and with the the Dual Layers seemingly doing nothing to improve Attack-type's potential, we're in a similar situation as we were pre-Odin ban.
This is the exact same fear I have after seeing their combos, hopefully it's just because some set ups haven't been explored enough or everyone was just playing conservative. If it wasn't one of those things then this meta looks very boring and not fun what so ever, talk about Odin format being a drag. Stamina everywhere.

Sadly I think this is a pretty accurate picture of where things are at right now. Unhappy

https://twitter.com/BeyBrad/status/721446141213155329
I definitely do not agree that there's no viable Attack-type Layers in the Burst metagame right now. At the very least, we have Valkyrie and Xcalibur. That said, it does absolutely suck that arguably the best Attack Layer–Valkyrie–is the one Layer that has serious teeth wear issues, though. I haven't tested Victory Valkyrie and Obelisk Odin enough to make my own conclusion about them yet, but I haven't written them off personally.

Forgetting stationary Valkyrie for a moment (which is technically an "Attack type" and did quite well today), both Valkyrie and Xcalibur had some success on Xtreme today against Wyvern Defense combos: ThermalG beat 1234beyblade with Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme, and I lost 3-2 with Valkyrie Limited Xtreme against Hato (which I consider a good battle given how well Wyvern takes hits from Valkyrie generally). And against Deathscyther, your opponent is pretty much finished if the opponent knows how to launch properly. I saw this happen over, and over, and over again while I was in Japan at the WBOxWARIBEY event with VHX vs. DHD. Double Burst Finishes do happen in battles like that, but in general people were having little problem with being able to KO or Burst Deathscyther with Valkyrie and come out victorious in the end. That said, it is important to note that except in the WBO tournament at the WBOxWARIBEY event, TAKARA-TOMY rules were in use, so that means 2-Point Burst Finishes. I still think doing something like that (whether it be for Burst Finishes or KOs) would be an interesting experiment. But in any case, I don't think Attack types aren't viable under WBO rules right now anyways. We do need a better Attack type Layer–and despite not writing off Victory Valkyrie, Obelisk Odin, or even Storm Spriggan just yet, nothing in the Dual Layer releases strikes me immediately as the next "best" Attack type Layer, which is a disappointment–but saying there is "a complete lack of viable Attack-type Layers" might be a little bit of an exaggeration from my point of view.

Regarding the improvement of Stamina-type Drivers, it'll be interesting to see if Revolve overtakes Defense as the go-to Driver for Deathscyther in Japan soon. While I was there, Defense was still king and Gyro was nowhere to be seen despite the minor improvements we may have perceived in our own testings on the WBO. Interestingly, I played DHR with DHD today and won 3-1, with all of my wins coming via Burst Finish haha. And when I was in Japan, the same thing happened to me but I was on the other end: I lost with DHR (this was on the day Revolve was released) versus DHD via Burst Finishes.

In any case, like I said before, I had a great time at the event in Toronto today! There was plenty of interesting things going on today from a competitive perspective; it wasn't boring at all to me. There's always going to be small periods within the Burst metagame where we perceive certain issues–some that may be more damaging than others, like the Odin situation pre-ban–but the great thing about it is this: it's still evolving and will continue to do so into the foreseeable future. That's why I never get too concerned about the results or metagame shift seen in one tournament. There's always a shift of some kind from tournament to tournament, whether it be because of new discoveries using existing parts, or because of new releases. And obviously, we are still at a point where everyone doesn't even have their hands on Dual Layers or hasn't even had the time to test them all properly yet (like myself), so there's surely going to be new things discovered as we move forward.
There definitely aren't any attack Layers that don't work besides Valkyrie. Xcalibur is still a thing and Obelisk Odin seems to preform quite like it. I personally have yet to test Victory Valkyrie as well. Valkyrie is used more for Bursting the opponent rather, unlike Obelisk Odin and Xcalibur, which makes it more viable on stationary attack combos, which are used more prominently in Toronto. If there was no Valkyrie, I wouldn't be surprised that yesterday would have consisted of more Xcalibur.

Quote:You forgot to list Wyvern Gravity Unite
Quote:So did you win with Neptune at all, even just one match? Technically that qualifies to be listed under your winning combinations, if that is the case.

I don't even know how I managed not to include them, LOL. I'll go ahead and add them now.
What did WHR win against? I don't really understand Wyvern stamina in general since it's stamina really isn't great unless they're a good counter to stationary attack combos.
I had used Wyvern Heavy Revolve to beat Minion's Valkyrie Heavy Survive and Beyonomics' Wyvern Heavy Defense. I had intended to use it mainly for defense but in case I ran into a stamina combo, I had added Revolve for a bit more versatility. If you have a good launch, Wyvern Heavy Revolve comes close to out-spinning stamina combos, but I wouldn't rely on it to always do so.
Fair enough, that's about what I expected.
Firstly, it's time to stop hand-waving away Valkyrie's wear issues. It has a huge impact on player behaviour and as such, it's worth factoring in when we consider the state of the metagame. We're almost a year into Burst now — the best Attack-type Layer also being a completely consumable, disposable good is not acceptable. Takara-Tomy has had numerous opportunities to rectify this, either by reissuing Valkyrie with this issue resolved, or by releasing a new Attack-type Layer that outclasses Valkyrie and doesn't have this issue. (This isn't rocket-science to do.) They have thus far declined and/or failed to do so.

Xcalibur and Valkyrie have good potential — when they work, they're magnificent. But they don't work well as often as an overpowered Stamina-type behemoth like Deathscyther X Revolve does, which only needs to avoid the rare burst or KO to win. The slot machine of Xcalibur's single powerful contact point or Valkyrie's flimsy teeth just don't compare.

And even then, the most popular use of Valkyrie we're seeing is in stationary combos that exist solely to counter DxR/G/D. And Wyvern X Revolve exists only to counter that. So you could argue that the entire metagame is back to revolving around overpowered Stamina-types (and I shall argue this!).

When we discussed banning Odin, we talked a lot about opportunity cost — the cost of not using it was always greater than the cost of using it. I think we're running into a similar situation now, even without Odin (although Deathscyther is certainly more beatable than Odin). I think we're going run into the same situation with Stamina-based combos, particularly with Revolve on the scene. Make no mistake — this part is a monster, and while you can win with Xtreme, it feels too much like a roll of the dice, moreso than any other generation of Beyblade.



April 17, 2016 — Dueling Duality: Winning Combos

1st: Bey Brad
  • Deathscyther Spread Revolve
  • Wyvern Spread Revolve
  • Wyvern Heavy Revolve

2nd: @[MissingNo.]
  • Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme
  • Deathscyther Ring Accel

3rd: @[Lani]
  • Deathscyther Heavy Revolve
  • Valkyrie Heavy Revolve
  • Wyvern Heavy Revolve
  • Deathscyther Gravity Revolve
Was there any noticeable difference when you changed the disks on wyvern?
(Apr. 17, 2016  10:42 PM)Ultra Wrote: [ -> ]Was there any noticeable difference when you changed the disks on wyvern?

I lost to MissingNo.'s Xcalibur Heavy Xtreme 3-0 with WSR. In the finals, I won 3-0 against his XHX with WHR. Of course, that could be for any variety of reasons, but it would be unsurprising if Heavy is harder to knock around Smile
This definitely sounds a lot like the Toronto tournament yesterday. Tongue_out I feel now that while there are more Layers in the game that could be used, there are definitely going to be matches where Wyvern Revolve playing Wyvern Revolve and Deathscyther Revolve playing Deathscyther Revolve come down to launch power. It sounds a lot like the Odin situation. This was the case in both Montreal today and Toronto yesterday but I really want to see how other regions fare with Revolve before making any final decisions.

edit: Actually, in the case of Deathscyther vs. Deathscyther Revolve, we may want to remember that recoil is a factor in winning, unlike Odin in most cases.
Bey Brad Wrote:Firstly, it's time to stop hand-waving away Valkyrie's wear issues. It has a huge impact on player behaviour and as such, it's worth factoring in when we consider the state of the metagame. We're almost a year into Burst now — the best Attack-type Layer also being a completely consumable, disposable good is not acceptable. Takara-Tomy has had numerous opportunities to rectify this, either by reissuing Valkyrie with this issue resolved, or by releasing a new Attack-type Layer that outclasses Valkyrie and doesn't have this issue. (This isn't rocket-science to do.) They have thus far declined and/or failed to do so.

Beyblade Burst launched less than a year ago. It’s constantly changing and you're gonna go to war over “the best Attack-type Layer being a completely consumable, disposable good”?

That son of a carp TAKARA-TOMY brought the war to us over 15 years ago. Jesus, Kei, count the dead Valkyries… thousands of them. What's next? Millions? They have the power to wipe out the entire human race with poor teeth design, and if we believe there's even a one percent chance that this isn’t going to change, we have to take it as an absolute certainty... and we have to destroy them.

(Apr. 18, 2016  1:10 AM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]
Bey Brad Wrote:the best Attack-type Layer also being a completely consumable, disposable good

Beyblade Burst launched less than a year ago. It’s constantly changing and you're gonna go to war over “the best Attack-type Layer being a completely consumable, disposable good”?

It hasn't really been "constantly changing" for a while. And in case you forgot, we actually had to ban a part in order to bring any sense of variety to the game in the first place.

Also, yes, it's a big deal. A huge deal. To think otherwise is to look at it from an incredibly privileged perspective. Playing Beyblade competitively is expensive enough without this as a factor; it's totally unreasonable to expect players to buy new Layers after like 30 rounds of use.

Also, can you guys try to stay on topic here? Smile
Hahaha, we were just kidding, but in all seriousness I agree! I do feel excited with every new tournament however, so from my perspective things have certainly been constantly changing to one degree or another! One of the reasons is because of us banning Odin though, so I'm not saying that there are no problems by any means. I'm just feeling more optimistic because I see Valkyrie and Xcalibur as stronger Layers than you seem to view them.

Not trying to hand-wave away Valkyrie’s wear issues. It’s a huge problem and it does have an impact on player behaviour since not everyone will buy new Valkyries to use constantly. That said, from an objective, idealistic point of view where the game is played using new parts, Valkyrie is quite good in my experience. When evaluating the competitive health of the metagame in Beyblade, we have tended to always look at it this way when deciding on things like the "competitive" customs lists; discounting things like part availability or part wear despite the very real issues they do inevitably present. That doesn't mean we shouldn't consider these issues–since you're right, to not consider them would be to look at the game from a privileged perspective (although right now I'd say anybody who can afford to import everything is certainly privileged a little bit)–but it's also important to think about the game more ideally too where everybody is on an even playing field.

TAKARA-TOMY does need to release a better new Attack type Layer (and should have re-released Valkyrie with new teeth. They’ve certainly had the opportunity to do so); clearly Victory Valkyrie was intended to be that Layer, but it has maybe fallen short. But right now I don’t agree that Valkyrie and Xcalibur don’t work well as often as they should. A lot of that depends on the user because we are talking about an Attack type here, too. More so than other types, Attack requires a competent user to help it realize the potential it has. That said, I think it’s hard for any of us to make final conclusions about these Layers in particular because there’s so much variance in our own experience and other variables (like teeth wear) to consider. I might be wrong and you may be right, in the end. Or it could be the other way around.

I don’t have much experience with Revolve yet other than the anecdotal notes I added to some of my other posts from the tournament performance that I’ve seen, so I can’t speak too much to it yet beyond that. Need to do formal testing with it still.

There is a bit of a triangle emerging currently, certainly. It’s an issue worth recognizing, but I don’t view it as being nearly as bad as the metagame was before Odin was banned personally. But like I said, I need more time with Revolve before I can make conclusions similar to your own. Time will tell!

Right now I guess it all comes down to how strong each individual person feels conventional Attack is; I feel like it’s strong enough, but could be better, and you feel like it isn’t strong enough.

edit: Interesting to see that MissingNo was able to place second today without using Revolve at all, like I did yesterday.
Quote:That said, from an objective, idealistic point of view where the game is played using new parts, Valkyrie is quite good in my experience. When evaluating the competitive health of the metagame in Beyblade, we have tended to always look at it this way when deciding on things like the "competitive" customs lists; discounting things like part availability or part wear despite the very real issues they do inevitably present.

I just think that this issue is more extreme than any we've ever faced before. There has never been a part in Beyblade history that becomes competitively-worthless this quickly. I really hope we'll get something that can replace it soon. Unhappy
(Apr. 18, 2016  3:04 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:That said, from an objective, idealistic point of view where the game is played using new parts, Valkyrie is quite good in my experience. When evaluating the competitive health of the metagame in Beyblade, we have tended to always look at it this way when deciding on things like the "competitive" customs lists; discounting things like part availability or part wear despite the very real issues they do inevitably present.

I just think that this issue is more extreme than any we've ever faced before. There has never been a part in Beyblade history that becomes competitively-worthless this quickly. I really hope we'll get something that can replace it soon. Unhappy

Is this referring to Victory Valkyrie or just Valkyrie?
Just Valkyrie.
Burst! Rush Shoot!! - 23 April 2016

The Results...

3rd - Manicben
Deathscyther Heavy Revolve
Valkyrie Spread Revolve
Wyvern Heavy Zephyr

2nd - @[Balance Blader]
Deathscyther Spread Revolve
Valkyrie Heavy Xtreme
Wyvern Heavy Zephyr
Kaiser Kerbeus Gravity Defense

1st - @[Ultra]
Deathscyther Spread Revolve
Valkyrie Spread Needle


Sadly barely any dual layer stuff got used, other than the now popular Revolve Driver!
And there were so many times when V2 got used and we were scared the wings would break. After seeing 1234beyblade's vids, we prayed for Victory Valkyrie.
Attack got used a lot more this time and to great effect against Deathscyther combos, but Valkrie based stamina also did well.
Yo Balance Blader is my guy hah. So how did Kaiser Kerbeus do, what did it win against?