To continue the disscussion started in "Got wolf today" thread. See topic for background info.
The question is 'Defense' its own type of beyblade? ie: Attack, 'Defense', Survivial.
Or is it a compremise between Attack and Survival types?
My opinion is that 'defense' is a property relative to the beyblades in play, and is not its own type.
To avoid flamewars,
support your thinking with an example.
Please disscuss.
easy answer:
whell in the toys and show they say it is its own type. lol example: draciel in the show and tops they say its a defense type.
more technical answer:
yes b/c survival type is made to endure against almost anything. an attack type is made strictly for attack(offense) and Defense is made to counter offense. Example: sports every game has a defense and and offense but to counter each other. therefore defense is a valid beyblade type. to quote max "the best offense is a good defense" lol XD
(Oct. 12, 2008 10:48 PM)beymasterkai Wrote: [ -> ]whell in the toys and show they say it is its own type. lol example: draciel in the show and tops they say its a defense type.
This really contributes nothing to the discussion.
My feeling is that while Defense is a technical "type", rarely is it used on its own. However, let's take Grip Sharp Core as an example ... it would be hard to argue that this RC is anything but a Defense type. Rubber is going to have terrible Survival, but since it's sharp it's going to have no Attack power.
However, such utilization of pure Defense rarely is a useful attribute in battle, so most of us bring in elements of Defense with our Attack and Survival types.
(Oct. 12, 2008 10:51 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 12, 2008 10:48 PM)beymasterkai Wrote: [ -> ]whell in the toys and show they say it is its own type. lol example: draciel in the show and tops they say its a defense type.
This really contributes nothing to the discussion.
My feeling is that while Defense is a technical "type", rarely is it used on its own. However, let's take Grip Sharp Core as an example ... it would be hard to argue that this RC is anything but a Defense type. Rubber is going to have terrible Survival, but since it's sharp it's going to have no Attack power.
However, such utilization of pure Defense rarely is a useful attribute in battle, so most of us bring in elements of Defense with our Attack and Survival types.
yeah i realized after that it was a bit simple lol so i edited it 0
lol
It depends on what you mean by defence. In my head there are 2 trains of thought for this.
1. What Brad brought up about a Grip Sharp (mint obviously) and how it DOES repel pure attackers like MS/MSUV's core and the combos based around them.
2. Minimizing the total damage taken by being basically a spinning paper weight. (Needs to be as circular as possible so it doesn't really take the brunt of a hit by having pieces jutting out everywhere) It's so heavy and moves so very little that it eventually outlasts the others.
The second one is debatable, but I would still call that defencive and not really endurance. Based on what beymasterkai brought up. I wouldn't say it's countering. It's more deflecting or withstanding the blows. Countering to me is having an attack and then moving to bring in your own attack. Countering the blow if you will.
What does it being heavy have to do with it outlasting others?
What do you mean by "damage"?
(Oct. 12, 2008 11:47 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: [ -> ]What does it being heavy have to do with it outlasting others?
What do you mean by "damage"?
I mean something totally circular will not lose as much spin because there is nothing sticking outward to actually catch onto and hit. The loss of spin should be reduced. If something is heavier it is going to move a hell of a lot less when something comes into contact with it (no ring outs) Since rule 1 of a smasher is being light and using lateral speed (overal movement in the stadium) To bring in an attack. If the blade it hits is heavier it's not going to do much of anything. Infact the lighter blade will lose a lot more spin.
Damage would be spin loss.
Well in this game, PURE defense types haven't really been prioritized because of their properties. On blueprint, the ideal defense combo would involve having a rubber gripped tip because of the amount of friction is has to keep it on the stadium. Although it is effective, they never last too long compared to survival types. Weight is another main property (can be said for any type really). Generally, the heavier they Bey, the better so in this case, it'll prevent it from getting KOed. Adding only those two properties for a pure type defense combo wouldn't be so wise since it'd be hurting itself more than helping it because of the amount of weight on the rubber tip. That's why we usually utilize survival type parts with defense types such as using bearing cores.
I voted Yes, but...I could go both ways for this.
Defense is recognized as a real type, and has a definite difference from Stamina. While Stamina keeps spin under attack, Defense keeps from moving while under attack.
Defense also has the potential to be very useful. I see weight being the only restraint upon Defense type Beyblades. If there was no limit for weight, or a higher-set limit for weight, you'd probably see more beyblades that are heavy enough to stay in place after being hit.
That being said, a true Defense is hard to come by. Most Defense types are OK at defending, but rarely does one actually hold to the center. I realize that it's impossible for a Beyblade to not move at all when attacked, but many Defense types move just as much as Stamina types upon being hit.
Again, it could go both ways. I voted yes, but after thinking about it, I see the types that are classified as "Defense" as more of a sub-category of Stamina, rather than it's own type.
Pure defense is next to useless, I admit that for sure... Grip Sharp tips have horrible endurance but are the zenith of defensive power. I suppose someone could see most defense types as survival types with added defense because they defeat the opponent with survival. I think it is a matter of preference to say defense is a true type of Beyblade. I say that it is because any defense combinations I have made are built specifically to fight against attack types and endure their onslaught. Their purpose is to defend, then outlast. A survival type's purpose is simply to outlast. An attack type's purpose is to knock out.
(Oct. 13, 2008 5:52 AM)Anubis Wrote: [ -> ]I say that it is because any defense combinations I have made are built specifically to fight against attack types and endure their onslaught. Their purpose is to defend, then outlast. A survival type's purpose is simply to outlast. An attack type's purpose is to knock out.
i completly agree with Anubis, only he worded it better than me ;_; lol
I've been thinking about this for a while, but Anubis helped me make my decision with what he said here:
(Oct. 13, 2008 5:52 AM)Anubis Wrote: [ -> ]Their purpose is to defend, then outlast. A survival type's purpose is simply to outlast. An attack type's purpose is to knock out.
Relative to Beyblade, I see Defense as a strategy that is placed between Survival and Attack because even though a Defense types purpose is to defend against Attacks, I think you can technically say at the same time that it's purpose is to outlast the opponent, like a Survival type Bey.
However, it is possible to create a Beyblade who's purpose is to endure and Attack types onslaught like Anubis has done, but even in those customs, their main goal is still to outlast the opponent.
(Oct. 13, 2008 11:42 PM)Kei Wrote: [ -> ]I've been thinking about this for a while, but Anubis helped me make my decision with what he said here:
(Oct. 13, 2008 5:52 AM)Anubis Wrote: [ -> ]Their purpose is to defend, then outlast. A survival type's purpose is simply to outlast. An attack type's purpose is to knock out.
Relative to Beyblade, I see Defense as a strategy that is placed between Survival and Attack because even though a Defense types purpose is to defend against Attacks, I think you can technically say at the same time that it's purpose is to outlast the opponent, like a Survival type Bey.
However, it is possible to create a Beyblade who's purpose is to endure and Attack types onslaught like Anubis has done, but even in those customs, their main goal is still to outlast the opponent.
Well take it from the show. FIRST match Max has with Tyson. His Beyblade takes all the power from Dragoon all the onslaught and outlasts him. To quote him. "I think not! Because you just ran out of steam!"
In My opinion there are 2 types of beyblade categories, those who try to outspin, and those who try to do something related to the holes. They each have 2 types of beyblade in there category:
OutSpin:
Endurance (The more defencive one of these 2)
Zombie (the more offencive)
Knockout:
Attack (offence, obviously)
Defence (Do i even have to say?!)
So there are 6 different Battles:
E VS Z (The classical, who will outspin battle)
D VS A (Ah, will the attack be able to outpower the defence, or crumble?)
E VS A (Will the endurance be able to outlast the attack?!)
Z VS D (Will The Z Be able to steal enough spin and hit enough to win?!)
E VS D (Will the D be able to knock-out the E by luck or will it run out of thunder!)
Z VS A (Will The Attack Blast the Z out, or will the Z Strike enough to suck its life away!?)
There are also different combos of these types, but lets not get too complicated. Heres a chain:
A > E > Z > D > A, now if you took out the D it would be stupid: A > E > Z, No weakness. Same with any of them.
(Oct. 14, 2008 3:01 AM)Train Wrote: [ -> ]Well take it from the show. FIRST match Max has with Tyson. His Beyblade takes all the power from Dragoon all the onslaught and outlasts him. To quote him. "I think not! Because you just ran out of steam!"
Yeah, but the main purpose of his Beyblade is to outlast the Attack type, which is, in this case Dragoon. Some Beyblades can be built to take hits from other Beyblades, but that won't detract from their overarching objective.
You either want to outlast your opponent, or knock them out of the stadium. Anything in between is just a variation. In my opinion, Survival and Defense types are essentially the same at their core. Their purposes can be skewed towards one side or another (Survival or Defense), but they will always have a bit of the other type within them.
Gotruto what are you talking about?
I just think that we're never going to refer to a Defense type as a Survival type. It's because it isn't. Yes, it has Survival attributes because it has to outspin its opponent, but its purpose is still clearly different than that of a Survival type. If I built Kagetsu-Shard, which is
AR: Smash Turtle
WD: Wide Defense
BB: SG MetalBall Four Balls
SG: Neo Right HMC
to defend against attackers that are generally higher (like anything with Customize Grip Base), then I'm not going to call it a "Survival combo with added Defense". I'm going to call it a Defense type. It isn't pure defense, but a Bearing Attacker isn't pure Attack but it is still an Attack type. Yes, it has Survival attributes, but that doesn't change the fact that its purpose is to be aggressive and KO the opponent. It is an Attack type, not a "Survival type with added Attack". I mean I guess you could call it that if you wanted to, or you could call it an "Attack type with added Survival", and that is correct because it is an Attack type and its purpose is still to KO the opponent even if it has the ability to endure in case it can't.
Again, I guess it's all a matter of preference but it still doesn't make any sense to me that Defense would not be considered a true "type".
(Oct. 14, 2008 3:18 AM)Gotruto Wrote: [ -> ]In My opinion there are 2 types of people, those who try to outlast, and those who try to do something related to the holes.
I seriously thought that that was what I read...
Defense should be its own type, in my opinion. It's more of a broad classification like Attack and Survival, where you can [somewhat] create subtypes, like rebounders. I can also see Defense types being able to hold its own against the other types, the Beyblade systems/designs surely haven't been perfected, nor have Attack, Defense, or Survival. Though Defense hasn't been doing so well in the past, I see Defense having the most room for improvement.
I think defence is its own type, just like attack and endurance. However, there is a much broader range of parts for attack and survival than there is for defence.
Also, Gotruto, endurance is a blanket term that zombies fall under as a sub-type. And, why class defence blades under the "knockout" category if they are ment to repel attacks instead of them being the aggressors?
perhaps in addition, defence types take a hit and try to make the next one less effective, whereas survival types just take an onslaught and hope that they will last longer than the aggressor
(Oct. 14, 2008 7:16 PM)ChozenBlader Wrote: [ -> ]I think defence is its own type, just like attack and endurance. However, there is a much broader range of parts for attack and survival than there is for defence.
Also, Gotruto, endurance is a blanket term that zombies fall under as a sub-type. And, why class defence blades under the "knockout" category if they are ment to repel attacks instead of them being the aggressors?
Zombie is under Survival because they both try to outlast the opponent, in my view, they are 2 seperate types. And Defence is classed under "Knockout" because defence is suppose to stay in the ring, and NOT get knocked out. If you look at my definition of knockout at the top, "something related to the holes" it fits under it.
: LOL
(Oct. 14, 2008 9:20 PM)Gotruto Wrote: [ -> ]Zombie is under Survival because they both try to outlast the opponent, in my view, they are 2 seperate types. And Defence is classed under "Knockout" because defence is suppose to stay in the ring, and NOT get knocked out. If you look at my definition of knockout at the top, "something related to the holes" it fits under it.
: LOL
That doesn't make any sense. "Knockout" isn't a class at all, and it wouldn't be considered "Knockout" class if it was supposed to do the opposite of knocking out. By that same logic, Stamina types would be related to "Knockout" because they can be knocked out of the ring.
(Oct. 14, 2008 9:20 PM)Gotruto Wrote: [ -> ] (Oct. 14, 2008 7:16 PM)ChozenBlader Wrote: [ -> ]I think defence is its own type, just like attack and endurance. However, there is a much broader range of parts for attack and survival than there is for defence.
Also, Gotruto, endurance is a blanket term that zombies fall under as a sub-type. And, why class defence blades under the "knockout" category if they are ment to repel attacks instead of them being the aggressors?
Zombie is under Survival because they both try to outlast the opponent, in my view, they are 2 seperate types. And Defence is classed under "Knockout" because defence is suppose to stay in the ring, and NOT get knocked out. If you look at my definition of knockout at the top, "something related to the holes" it fits under it.
: LOL
Something relating to the holes... not a very good explanation in my opinion. I think you're just overcomplicating things by putting beyblade types into categories that don't really make immediate sense. Also, a zombie is a sub-type of survival. Simple as. What you said is like me saying "Upper Attackers are different to attack types".
When you generalize it, it makes sense that defense is its own type instead of a compromise. This is true because I can make a statement like this:
"Defense types are made to not be knocked around/knocked out the stadium easily."
I understand you guys and your points, but I think defense, in essence, is just what statement describes.