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Full Version: Classic Has A Bad Time: Chaos Heavy High Xtend+'
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(Feb. 22, 2022  12:10 AM)Broyeeto Wrote: [ -> ]
(Feb. 21, 2022  11:29 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]I still think banning hxt’ is a stretch. And Kreis Satan being allowed in classic would be a problem. It’d arguably have even better defense with its layer alone than something like gianon on keep. Just because something is a tiny bit heavier doesn’t mean it’s the same level. Spriggan Reqiuem’s Layer is 1 gram heavier than legend Spriggan’s. And…. I don’t think I need to explain the rest.
Let’s try to keep the thread on topic (this isn’t singling you out just goes for everyone) but hxt+’ definitely needs to be banned. This is even coming from the person who used it. It destroys the stamina sub metagame that classic is so beloved because of. With this combo anything that isn’t directly designed to beat it and suffer to anything else (the R on revolve-spm) loses to it. Also! It is worth saying that I do not think high xtend+’ itself is overpowering, it is just the combination with Chaos that makes it crazy strong.
At the recent classic tournaments I’ve been to (just 2) I saw a Blader using I Hound Dog on polish high Xtend+’ and another Blader frequently using Odin heavy high defense. They were both very similiar and I had beaten the Odin combo in my 2nd tournament, but from seeing them in matches they were very powerful.
(Feb. 22, 2022  12:25 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]
(Feb. 22, 2022  12:10 AM)Broyeeto Wrote: [ -> ]Let’s try to keep the thread on topic (this isn’t singling you out just goes for everyone) but hxt+’ definitely needs to be banned. This is even coming from the person who used it. It destroys the stamina sub metagame that classic is so beloved because of. With this combo anything that isn’t directly designed to beat it and suffer to anything else (the R on revolve-spm) loses to it. Also! It is worth saying that I do not think high xtend+’ itself is overpowering, it is just the combination with Chaos that makes it crazy strong.
At the recent classic tournaments I’ve been to (just 2) I saw a Blader using I Hound Dog on polish high Xtend+’ and another Blader frequently using Odin heavy high defense. They were both very similiar and I had beaten the Odin combo in my 2nd tournament, but from seeing them in matches they were very powerful.
Sorry for the late response, been busy. While I’m sure the Hound Dog combo is good, I don’t think it will hold up to more pure stamina combos (due to it not having the best of stamina in the first place) high xtend+’ on chaos is like the perfect storm due to chaos making up for the lack of stamina on Hxt+’ rather than revolve. The odin combo is interesting and I believe it was shindog who uses it. This doesn’t do quite the same thing as chaos to the format (destroying the matchup chart), since this thing still can lose to other stamina that is regular. High xtend+’ on chaos doesn’t give the stamina sub meta (what is it so so beloved for its intricate design) any room to breathe which makes it A. Too safe and b: too overpowered for classic.
(Feb. 22, 2022  10:37 PM)Broyeeto Wrote: [ -> ]
(Feb. 22, 2022  12:25 AM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]At the recent classic tournaments I’ve been to (just 2) I saw a Blader using I Hound Dog on polish high Xtend+’ and another Blader frequently using Odin heavy high defense. They were both very similiar and I had beaten the Odin combo in my 2nd tournament, but from seeing them in matches they were very powerful.
Sorry for the late response, been busy. While I’m sure the Hound Dog combo is good, I don’t think it will hold up to more pure stamina combos (due to it not having the best of stamina in the first place) high xtend+’ on chaos is like the perfect storm due to chaos making up for the lack of stamina on Hxt+’ rather than revolve. The odin combo is interesting and I believe it was shindog who uses it. This doesn’t do quite the same thing as chaos to the format (destroying the matchup chart), since this thing still can lose to other stamina that is regular. High xtend+’ on chaos doesn’t give the stamina sub meta (what is it so so beloved for its intricate design) any room to breathe which makes it A. Too safe and b: too overpowered for classic.
- I don’t know if hxt+’ has a lack of stamina per say, but I guess with revolve around thats debatable. 
- I do recall seeing the Odin combo on Shindog’s winning combos somewhere but it was actually VirtuousCircle who used it. Very tough combo to beat. 
- The chaos hxt+’ combo is good, but I’m not so sure it’s chaos that makes hxt+’ so powerful. I think it’s powerful on its own. 
  • It’s a taller revolve giving it top tier stamina as well as height to destabilize most short sharp tipped drivers
  • It’s a dash which is insane since the only other dash stamina driver that’s usable in classic is… well I was gonna say wave’ but I dunno if anyone besides me likes it…
  • It’s  got 3 modes in case you want to go aggressive against a stamina type that’s a ball tip, or go defensive against a really aggressive attack type
  • And just to add to that it’s got top tier LAD if someone tries to throw a dragoon on zone’+z at you. Anything else besides zone’+z on dragoon will either burst or lose by OS 

-I still think banning hxt+’ might be a stretch since there has only been 2 successful combos using it I’ve seen but I’d definitely say  it’s a problem right now. And that’s in classic!
(Feb. 22, 2022  10:57 PM)TheRogueBlader Wrote: [ -> ]
(Feb. 22, 2022  10:37 PM)Broyeeto Wrote: [ -> ]Sorry for the late response, been busy. While I’m sure the Hound Dog combo is good, I don’t think it will hold up to more pure stamina combos (due to it not having the best of stamina in the first place) high xtend+’ on chaos is like the perfect storm due to chaos making up for the lack of stamina on Hxt+’ rather than revolve. The odin combo is interesting and I believe it was shindog who uses it. This doesn’t do quite the same thing as chaos to the format (destroying the matchup chart), since this thing still can lose to other stamina that is regular. High xtend+’ on chaos doesn’t give the stamina sub meta (what is it so so beloved for its intricate design) any room to breathe which makes it A. Too safe and b: too overpowered for classic.
- I don’t know if hxt+’ has a lack of stamina per say, but I guess with revolve around thats debatable. 
- I do recall seeing the Odin combo on Shindog’s winning combos somewhere but it was actually VirtuousCircle who used it. Very tough combo to beat. 
- The chaos hxt+’ combo is good, but I’m not so sure it’s chaos that makes hxt+’ so powerful. I think it’s powerful on its own. 
  • It’s a taller revolve giving it top tier stamina as well as height to destabilize most short sharp tipped drivers
  • It’s a dash which is insane since the only other dash stamina driver that’s usable in classic is… well I was gonna say wave’ but I dunno if anyone besides me likes it…
  • It’s  got 3 modes in case you want to go aggressive against a stamina type that’s a ball tip, or go defensive against a really aggressive attack type
  • And just to add to that it’s got top tier LAD if someone tries to throw a dragoon on zone’+z at you. Anything else besides zone’+z on dragoon will either burst or lose by OS 

-I still think banning hxt+’ might be a stretch since there has only been 2 successful combos using it I’ve seen but I’d definitely say  it’s a problem right now. And that’s in classic!

Revolve vs high xtend+’ on same combo revolve wins if it’s a stamina battle. Revolve objectively has better stamina than high xtend+’ (here, at least I don’t know standard overly well other than guilty knocks things into pockets). I don’t see where you’d go a different mode against a stamina type. Sharp/stamina has been by far the best in the testing able to get the out spins and bursts on ball driver stuff making them mainly not a worry. Dragoon f is very inconsistent, it’s not like burst standard LAD battles where per say drift always beats moment or something in opposite spin. Dragoon f can absolutely destroy a combo by os one time but then can’t do it the next, which makes it such a healthy format making it near all same spin battles. I am not 100% sure on the destabilization effects of Hxt+’ on other combos, I will most likely try it on D.H.Hxt+’ tonight to see how results go. But I doubt it will do much better than the classic DHR due to its pure stamina.
Yeah I tried other stuff with hxt+'. You have to have Chaos' amazing distro and ability to burst stuff to help it get over the things it doesn't have good enough ability to OS. Really here, Hxt+' is "just good enough". If we got say, Revolve', or if At' had been legal, you would need to use that same dash driver to handle it - Chaos was the part I referenced in the discord when I said I reckoned I could very easily break classic using At'. If you make Hasbro's Z Chip legal on zn', chaos again becomes a bit of a monster. Really, I think Classic had the one stamina meta I liked because it was very interactive and intricate... You add an even half decent dash stamina driver and that can break.
I'm entering a burst classic tournament soon and i'm scared of this lol

quick question: could HXT+' work on Dragoon F and Polish?
Edit: oh wait i see the post almost directly above me lol
(Feb. 23, 2022  2:24 PM)th!nk Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah I tried other stuff with hxt+'. You have to have Chaos' amazing distro and ability to burst stuff to help it get over the things it doesn't have good enough ability to OS. Really here, Hxt+' is "just good enough". If we got say, Revolve', or if At' had been legal, you would need to use that same dash driver to handle it - Chaos was the part I referenced in the discord when I said I reckoned I could very easily break classic using At'. If you make Hasbro's Z Chip legal on zn', chaos again becomes a bit of a monster. Really, I think Classic had the one stamina meta I liked because it was very interactive and intricate... You add an even half decent dash stamina driver and that can break.

After the tournament yesterday (whoo boy, what a mess that was), I can wholeheartedly agree that the wrong Stamina ' option just breaks the game. I used C.H.HXt+' for a round, absolutely crushed with it there against Cake using Odin Ring Blow (his options are limited, he's usually an MFB player). Eventually decided I didn't like the burst risk with so many people running Victory Valkyrie on Xtreme'/Quick' (and doing it well, that's really close to a hard counter to Chaos here) and swapped for Deathscyther to be more defensive with no real Stamina risk due to the lack of opposing Chaos users. Ended up riding that combo to 2nd place overall, and would've taken 1st had I not found myself barely getting KO'd with the stamina advantage. Like, it was 4-3 and he got the knockout by a hair. That's how close it was, could've easily gone the other way.

That much being said, it does make Jail Jormungand and Psychic Phantom usable. I like that, those layers are severely underutilized and I loved seeing JA's success with them (he took 3rd overall with J2 in particular). The bigger issue is that the rich get richer too. Odin was spammed frequently on HXt+', I used Deathscyther a ton myself to outspin that, and ultimately HXt+' dominated the Stamina metagame so hard that using anything that wasn't Xtreme', Wave', Keep', or High Xtend+' became nearly impossible. Choose something else and you're just going to get burst by Attack. Even without a huge Chaos presence, HXt+' warped the entire meta around itself and made a lot of previously usable drivers like Revolve, Orbit, and Ultimate Reboot' difficult or impossible to use properly.

After seeing this sort of excessive warping, I can wholeheartedly say that High Xtend+' warrants a ban in Classic. There is simply no reason to consider another driver for Stamina when it only opens you up to more bursts when this is basically free burst resistance at little to no cost and so easy to slip into a deck. Chaos in particular, assuming there's not enough Attack to try and counter it, crushes all other Defense and Stamina options with too much ease in particular, and I would've likely used it more if it wasn't for the Xtreme' levels of Attack in this tournament even in first stage.

Wave' is a watchlistable part as well, reasonably tanky yet with reasonable Stamina that exceeds what Keep' is capable of by a fair amount. Keep' is fine, you can hard counter pure Attack but you're not going to be consistently aggressive enough with it to try and counterattack so Stamina will still likely beat it. Deathscyther/Chaos on Wave' however, might be a big threat itself in a similar manner despite the Stamina cut and the less consistent motion. Zone' is more like Drift, its same-spin can be handled and a good hit/too much recoil could force it to waste energy with a momentary stall, but I might keep an eye on that too.
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