Hasbro Pro Series Stadium in different WBO formats

I guess if everyone else is cool with it who am I to speak up? Kind of disappointed to see people are okay with that sort of attitude but its whatever
(Jul. 28, 2021  10:03 PM)UnseenBurst Wrote: JCE Is correct DC Is just doing this for WBO's sake if I'm being honest like JCE said if DC Left, WBO Would be a huge mess, some people have different ways of communicating that's fine what sounds rude to you may just be his way of communicating

You'd be surprised how well the forum copes when someone who posts less-than-politely a lot to "keep others in line" disappears. Believe me, I've been that someone myself here before. Also, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.


Anyway, back to the stadium, I really am very concerned about bounce backs in plastics. The pockets are way too small and shallow for the generation. The ridge is nice, if too thick, but it skews the meta away from attack pretty severely. When I'm back from my holiday in a few days I'll do some tests to ensure they bear out this observation.
(Jul. 28, 2021  10:03 PM)UnseenBurst Wrote: JCE Is correct DC Is just doing this for WBO's sake if I'm being honest like JCE said if DC Left, WBO Would be a huge mess, some people have different ways of communicating that's fine what sounds rude to you may just be his way of communicating

If you really think that if this one guy left the wbo would be a mess that doesn't bode well. Anyways dude I don't have beef with you. I remember you and jce from tournament posts yall have been cool. I'm just saying attitudes like that are part of the reason why I left pokemon metagame. Maybe I am over reacting Nobody here is better than anyone but when I see with what I perceive as elitist attitudes idk man it just bothers me. Especially when its online just because of the anonymity of online interactions alot of people act and say things in a way they don't normally do in real life.
(Jul. 28, 2021  11:16 PM)LoneStarBlader Wrote:
(Jul. 28, 2021  10:03 PM)UnseenBurst Wrote: JCE Is correct DC Is just doing this for WBO's sake if I'm being honest like JCE said if DC Left, WBO Would be a huge mess, some people have different ways of communicating that's fine what sounds rude to you may just be his way of communicating

If you really think that if this one guy left the wbo would be a mess that doesn't bode well. Anyways dude I don't have beef with you. I remember you and jce from tournament posts yall have been cool. I'm just saying attitudes like that are part of the reason why I left pokemon metagame. Maybe I am over reacting Nobody here is better than anyone but when I see with what I perceive as elitist attitudes idk man it just bothers me. Especially when its online just because of the anonymity of online interactions alot of people act and say things in a way they don't normally do in real life.

Attitude is a strong way to put it, I would say more communication (Also yes DC is basically the one he makes sure WBO Dosen't turn upsidown)
(Jul. 28, 2021  11:16 PM)LoneStarBlader Wrote:
(Jul. 28, 2021  10:03 PM)UnseenBurst Wrote: JCE Is correct DC Is just doing this for WBO's sake if I'm being honest like JCE said if DC Left, WBO Would be a huge mess, some people have different ways of communicating that's fine what sounds rude to you may just be his way of communicating

If you really think that if this one guy left the wbo would be a mess that doesn't bode well. Anyways dude I don't have beef with you. I remember you and jce from tournament posts yall have been cool. I'm just saying attitudes like that are part of the reason why I left pokemon metagame. Maybe I am over reacting Nobody here is better than anyone but when I see with what I perceive as elitist attitudes idk man it just bothers me. Especially when its online just because of the anonymity of online interactions alot of people act and say things in a way they don't normally do in real life.

He's a good guy, he means well. He just communicates differently. I wouldn't say it's an attitude. Let's not get off-topic here, though.
(Jul. 28, 2021  11:15 PM)th!nk Wrote:
(Jul. 28, 2021  10:03 PM)UnseenBurst Wrote: JCE Is correct DC Is just doing this for WBO's sake if I'm being honest like JCE said if DC Left, WBO Would be a huge mess, some people have different ways of communicating that's fine what sounds rude to you may just be his way of communicating

You'd be surprised how well the forum copes when someone who posts less-than-politely a lot to "keep others in line" disappears. Believe me, I've been that someone myself here before. Also, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.


Anyway, back to the stadium, I really am very concerned about bounce backs in plastics. The pockets are way too small and shallow for the generation. The ridge is nice, if too thick, but it skews the meta away from attack pretty severely. When I'm back from my holiday in a few days I'll do some tests to ensure they bear out this observation.
Part 1:  agree 100%.  Besides my personal opinion, I think this is just historically correct. 

Part 2: interested to see the results
Per DC's suggestion I'll be running tests in the PS Stadium. While I'm testing what I can of recent winning combos, I'll gladly take requests for combos to test in the stadium. See spoiler for parts I have.

First set of testing.

Dynamite Belial (F) Giga Drift-3 vs Roar Bahamut Tapered Bearing-2 (Roar launched first on odds)
Dynamite Belial 70% (7OS)
Roar Bahamut 30% (3OS)

Dynamite Belial (F) Giga Drift-3 vs World Spriggan (Left) Xtend+ (Stamina) 2B (Free Spinning) (World launched first on odds)

Dynamite Belial 90% (8OS, 1KO)
World Spriggan (1KO)

Roar Bahamut Tapered Bearing-2 vs World Spriggan (Right) Xtend+ (Stamina) 2B (Free Spinning)
(World launched first on odds)

Roar Bahamut 50% (5OS)
World Spriggan 50% (4OS, 1KO)

The last one was pretty fun. World delivered some very powerful hits in almost every match. Most of the time Roar narrowly missed the pockets.
(Jul. 30, 2021  9:14 PM)Lean\s_Hedgehog Wrote: First set of testing.

Dynamite Belial (F) Giga Drift-3 vs Roar Bahamut Tapered Bearing-2 (Roar launched first on odds)
Dynamite Belial 70% (7OS)
Roar Bahamut 30% (3OS)

Dynamite Belial (F) Giga Drift-3 vs World Spriggan (Left) Xtend+ (Stamina) 2B (Free Spinning) (World launched first on odds)

Dynamite Belial 90% (8OS, 1KO)
World Spriggan (1KO)

Roar Bahamut Tapered Bearing-2 vs World Spriggan (Right) Xtend+ (Stamina) 2B (Free Spinning)
(World launched first on odds)

Roar Bahamut 50% (5OS)
World Spriggan 50% (4OS, 1KO)

The last one was pretty fun. World delivered some very powerful hits in almost every match. Most of the time Roar narrowly missed the pockets.

I don't see what you're trying to get at here. Shouldn't testing a stadium be testing matchups in a TT standard stadium and then testing the same matchups in the Pro Stadium and comparing the results?
(Jul. 30, 2021  11:10 PM)SpryzenRepair Wrote: I don't see what you're trying to get at here. Shouldn't testing a stadium be testing matchups in a TT standard stadium and then testing the same matchups in the Pro Stadium and comparing the results?

I don't have a standard stadium, so I'm providing the information that I can so that the comparisons can be made.
That's a fair point I guess, comparing the same matchups in both stadiums. But those don't have to be by the same people, although that would minimize variables. At least Lean's is getting part of the testing done, which is more testing than literally everyone else so far.
(Jul. 30, 2021  11:46 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: That's a fair point I guess, comparing the same matchups in both stadiums. But those don't have to be by the same people, although that would minimize variables. At least Lean's is getting part of the testing done, which is more testing than literally everyone else so far.

Oh ok. I only have a hasbro basic stadium, so I wouldn't be much help to the testing. Sorry if I sounded a bit rude or inconsiderate.
Haspro Stadium Testing - Plastics
High Power Attack Combo vs Standard Compact 

Combos:

Manta (M)
BC: Power Spirits/Bit Figure Collection Chip
AR: Square Edge (a bit worn)
WD: Wide Defense (approx 14g)
SG: Neo Right SG (Heavy Metal Core)
BB: Defense Grip Base (Inverted)

Tiger Defenser (TD)
BC: None (nothing will stay on consistently)
AR: Tiger Defenser
WD: Ten Heavy
BB: Metal Ball Base (6 Balls), tip worn.

Equipment:
2x EZShooter (Right Spin) - Both have Shims for reliability/sustainability and do not skip.
2x Dragon Winder - no tooth wear
Stadium either Tornado Attack or Haspro Stadium

Gallery of combos and launchers: http://imgur.com/a/gcj3Tmm

Protocol:
10 Rounds only as TA was conclusive and also plastics are very fragile. This match up is a known Tiger Defenser breaker. Sorry.

12 Rounds in HasPro BC I lost count lol.

Tiger Defenser launches first every round.
Manta is banked/slide shot, ensuring not to launch directly at TD. I have freed myself of the rust I had since coming back and my launch is now nice and consistent.
Haspro Stadium has the cover on.
I did a few warm up rounds beforehand mostly to get the tip gripping properly.
Tips were cleaned between rounds.

Notes for non plastics players or those wanting more context: (Click to View)
Anyway, the tests.

Tornado Attack

R1 M KO (Bounced TD off wall and out another exit)
R2 M KO (Sent TD flying)
R3 M KO ("")
R4 M KO (TD got about 4 wall saves, didn't have a wall on the 5th)
R5 M KO (bounced TD off one wall and it bounced high enough to clear another wall on the rebound)
R6 M KO (clean hit out the exit, not a great launch tho)
R7 M KO (Clean hit out the exit)
R8 M KO (hit TD hard enough that it bounced up and over the wall
R9 M KO (TD got a wall save but bounced near the opposite exit as manta swung around an swatted it out)
R10 M KO (TD scraped past the corner of the wall as it went out, not enough to save it)

Winrates:
Manta: 100% (10W (All KO))
TD: 0% (RIP)

Summary: 
All is as it should be - the strongest attack combo in the game in experienced hands should have little trouble tearing through a stationary balance type (this may be a foreign concept to those used to certain generations, but this has traditionally been considered something to aim for, not something to whinge about - MBB is not that strong defensively, if you want defense from a compact pick CMCB or even MCB, if you want ease of use and ability to outspin a few extra things (including other compacts) and general low effort pubstomping, that's when you go with MBB). No video here sorry, but there's really not anything to see that isn't in the notes. There were no relaunches or anything, clean 10 rounds.



Haspro
Due to the complications of the various rulesets being looked at with respect to pockets, round by round results will be formatted as though rebounds are NOT KO's and inside the pit is a "Secondary Play Area" where a Beyblade can win by OS. However I am also keeping notes for how it looks under rulings, and recording this entire session.

R1: TD OS (Manta failed to get it over the ridge enough)
R2: TD OS (Rebounded from back of pocket once)
R3: M KO (TD rebounded out of the pit once but stayed the second time)
R4: M KO (TD had a few wall saves but no pocket rebounds)
R5: TD OS (TWO rebounds from the pits plus a wall save that might not have helped in TA ending in a narrow OS, absolute filth)
R6: TD OS (TD goes over the pit touching either the side or back wall but rebounds and wins by OS)
R7: M OS (Rebounded out of the pit but managed to beat TD around enough to win a split second OS)
R8: M KO (Absolute flurry, TD got ping ponged all over the place and landed in a pit. Spectacular.)
R9: TD OS (I say here in the video that it rebounds from the pit however it actually hits the small wall between the two and the tip doesn't go over the pit... This gives credence to the difficulty of judging what is and isn't a pit rebound, not that Burst LAD battles aren't any easier. However, video footage helps.)
R10: TD OS (In Pit) (Double KO DRAW if not counting rebounds or the pockets as a play area, but TD continued spinning and Manta bounced back in upside down.)
R11: TD OS (TD catches the ridge too well for Manta to KO it here)
R12: M KO (Manta manages a signature "dying breath" KO)

Uncounted Rounds:
I omitted two rounds based on abnormalities, one a bad launch causing Manta to Self-KO, and another where Metal Ball Base caught the tornado ridge with its underside and went nuts. I felt these are not representative and that leaving them in was harsh to the Haspro stadium. They are in the video and listed here if you wish to redo the maths.

UR3: TD KO (I goofed the launch and Manta self KO'd after a couple of hits that failed to stop it's momentum)
UR6: TD OS (MBB went nuts on the ridge, which sometimes happens with haspro due to how thick it is)

Video: https://youtu.be/prMa4rwIrA8

Winrates:
Note that per standard procedure Draws are not counted but are noted and redone. As Round 10 was a draw if considering the pocket as a KO zone, the calculation for those rulings uses 10 Rounds instead of 11.

Counting Rebounds as Still in Play, Spinning in Pockets and not exiting as Still in Play:
Manta: 41.67% (4 KO, 1 OS)
TD: 58.33% (7 OS)

Counting Rebounds as Still in Play, Spinning in Pockets as Out:
Manta: 45.45% (4 KO, 1 OS)
TD: 54.55% (6 OS)
1 Draw

Counting any situation where the tip of the Beyblade passes over the pit as KO:
Manta: 63.64% (7 KO)
TD: 36.36% (1 KO, 3 OS)
1 Draw

Note that I am also using any time the tip passes over the pocket (ie no more stadium under it) as a KO for the last calculation rather than just back wall which does come up in R6. This is because judging back wall vs side wall is annoying and for *most* circumstances this is both an easier and simpler way to do it - basically a "would it be KOd if the pocket weren't there". Even this has some difficulty per Round 9 notes.

Summary

So, I would say the Haspro stadium really doesn't hold up at all. This should be a pretty clean sweep but even with generous rules you get 63.64% (maybe 72.73% if like me you don't catch a pocket wall vs actual wall thing). Gross stuff.

Compacts in particular are favoured due to their ability to take big hits without losing stamina. Being able to just pinball thru battles is pretty disgusting, and the ridge really gives them an advantage as anything past being thick enough to catch attack starts only helping defense. The video also shows that most early hits big enough to get the defender past the ridge are so big that they cause rebounds. Square Edge copes with this better than most, a lot of other attack rings only get those first few hits and a rebound or two will end it there - so for them - including Hayate AR (Legalise It), various War Bear SAR setups, Dark Wing, the disparity could be a lot worse. Sure, you could use it for a tournament. It's better than most hasbro stadiums, but get yourself a BB-10 at the least, please, otherwise you're not enjoying plastics to the fullest. As above in my spoiler, TA is truly the best stadium Takara have designed, and if you love plastics you owe it to yourself, you truly do, to get your hands on one. I do understand accessibility though.

As for Haspro, it's somewhat accessible in terms of being findable but really, it's part of a $100AUD set so.... Not really? At the very least I haven't seen it cheap, and you can find BB-10's cheap occasionally too. And it won't stay findable forever. And even if you cut off the pockets, their arrangement and the slightly too thick TR cause plenty of issues for attack nonetheless.

Of course, we do still need *a* stadium for plastics. In the words of the Karens with no personal accountability I will have to deal with tomorrow however, "this is not fit for purpose!". Currently the only stadiums that are suitable for plastics are Tornado Attack, BB-10, and probably that weird BB-10-like with the entry ramps instead of walls (Super Control Beystadium) and the weird Gold 3-ramp sonokong one (triple battle type maybe?)

What would be ideal though is a reproduction Tornado Attack - economies of scale really hurt the pricing and ability to get production time though, so the more people interested, the better. The WBO being willing to accept a functional/performance-equivalent but actually resilient stadium would probably go some way to assisting in this, and I urge the Committee to be open to this, for the sake of my beloved Plastics - surely the progenitor series deserves that much respect and care - or do we have no respect for our roots? Also, for the experience - I want people to be able to enjoy plastics as it's meant to be played, with the balance of Tornado Attack, a just right Tornado Ridge, consistency-improving bowl angles, great exit spacing. If we can make that viable, surely that is something we should be striving for out of love and passion for the game. It would in my books be far more authentic than even using BB-10, as we are using a design intended for Plastics, even if it isn't from Takara. Fragility is something the WBO needs to come to terms with, and this is where it is going to matter. That all depends if it can be done, of course, but I want to put the thought out there now - and say that I will absolutely die on the hill of getting everyone who wants to do so in as best a position as possible to play competitive plastics as it should be played - with the right foundation underneath their tops.

...As for other generations, obviously we have the same issue with Burst Standard judging, esp on judging back wall vs side wall. While less helpful a larger or modified shroud may be a good way to go, preserving Takara's stadium design intent and basically allowing easier judging. Whether anyone is interested I don't know, but from what I've seen I also hate B09 for plastics. I do wonder what we could do with any shrouds we do have and a better stadium, but I will probably talk about that more when I have a B09).
I just got off work and had a strange idea after reading the above post this morning…. Maybe manta hits too hard? I tried the following real quick. Just 5 rounds I think. I haven’t launched plastics in a long time as I have only been playing burst, but here is how I did in the HasPro stadium.

https://youtu.be/eqeBRY2zEkc

The combos are (I hope I am even listing the parts properly at this point, feel free to correct me)

1) Roller Defense Ring.Ten Heavy.Right Engine Gear(circle survivor). Normal Base. CEW Part: Circle Survivor

2) Dark Wing+Dark Wing SAR. Neo Right SG.HMC. Defense Grip Base (attack mode).

Dark Wing won 4 out of 5 and I launched pretty bad to a self KO Dark Wing loss. I think Attack can do well in the HasPro stadium.
(Aug. 03, 2021  2:46 AM)Shindog Wrote: I just got off work and had a strange idea after reading the above post this morning…. Maybe manta hits too hard?  I tried the following  real quick.  Just 5 rounds I think.  I haven’t launched plastics in a long time as I have only been playing burst, but here is how I did in the HasPro stadium.  

https://youtu.be/eqeBRY2zEkc

The combos are (I hope I am even listing the parts properly at this point, feel free to correct me)

1) Roller Defense Ring.Ten Heavy.Right Engine Gear(circle survivor). Normal Base. CEW Part: Circle Survivor

2) Dark Wing+Dark Wing SAR. Neo Right SG.HMC. Defense Grip Base (attack mode).

Dark Wing won 4 out of 5 and I launched pretty bad to a self KO Dark Wing loss. I think Attack can do well in the HasPro stadium.

I think my thoughts about things being "too good at their job" as a concept are public, CS is also big enough not to rebound at all... I don't think it helps that much when attack is struggling v balance, sorry Unhappy
(Aug. 03, 2021  2:48 AM)th!nk Wrote:
(Aug. 03, 2021  2:46 AM)Shindog Wrote: I just got off work and had a strange idea after reading the above post this morning…. Maybe manta hits too hard?  I tried the following  real quick.  Just 5 rounds I think.  I haven’t launched plastics in a long time as I have only been playing burst, but here is how I did in the HasPro stadium.  

https://youtu.be/eqeBRY2zEkc

The combos are (I hope I am even listing the parts properly at this point, feel free to correct me)

1) Roller Defense Ring.Ten Heavy.Right Engine Gear(circle survivor). Normal Base. CEW Part: Circle Survivor

2) Dark Wing+Dark Wing SAR. Neo Right SG.HMC. Defense Grip Base (attack mode).

Dark Wing won 4 out of 5 and I launched pretty bad to a self KO Dark Wing loss. I think Attack can do well in the HasPro stadium.

I think my thoughts about things being "too good at their job" as a concept are public, CS is also big enough not to rebound at all... I don't think it helps that much when attack is struggling v balance, sorry Unhappy
I don’t think I said too good.  Just hits too hard .
The point of attack is to hit hard, so hitting too hard is being too good at their job. Anyway, a weaker attacker doing better against CS than a stronger attacker is vs a compact (not even counting rebounds) is uh. Look I'm gonna say that's a weird meta.
I gave compact vs Manta a quick run too.

Manta
BC: Basic
AR: Square Edge
WD: Wide Defense
SG: Neo Right SG , Heavy Metal Core
BB: Defense Grip Base (attack mode)

Roller Defense Ring
BC: basic with bit protector (idk if that is what this is called)
AR: Roller Defense Ring
WD: Ten Heavy
BB: Metal Ball Base (6 Balls), tip worn.

https://youtu.be/t9fKblfJMoU

I have manta win by KO 4 out of 5 and win by OS 1 time. I personally would throw out the OS. So 4/4.
(Aug. 03, 2021  5:32 AM)Shindog Wrote: I gave compact vs Manta a quick run too.

Manta
BC: Basic
AR: Square Edge
WD: Wide Defense
SG: Neo Right SG , Heavy Metal Core
BB: Defense Grip Base (attack mode)

Roller Defense Ring
BC: basic with bit protector (idk if that is what this is called)
AR: Roller Defense Ring
WD: Ten Heavy
BB: Metal Ball Base (6 Balls), tip worn.

https://youtu.be/t9fKblfJMoU

I have manta win by KO 4 out of 5 and win by OS 1 time.  I personally would throw out the OS.  So 4/4.

Interesting, but 4 rounds is not much of a sample size I guess. Your MBB is not catching the ridge nearly as well and bouncing back a lot less. I'll try to measure my ridge and see the differences to your measuments too. With results like this I can understand why you would support the stadium, if they hold consistently
(Aug. 03, 2021  5:40 AM)th!nk Wrote:
(Aug. 03, 2021  5:32 AM)Shindog Wrote: I gave compact vs Manta a quick run too.

Manta
BC: Basic
AR: Square Edge
WD: Wide Defense
SG: Neo Right SG , Heavy Metal Core
BB: Defense Grip Base (attack mode)

Roller Defense Ring
BC: basic with bit protector (idk if that is what this is called)
AR: Roller Defense Ring
WD: Ten Heavy
BB: Metal Ball Base (6 Balls), tip worn.

https://youtu.be/t9fKblfJMoU

I have manta win by KO 4 out of 5 and win by OS 1 time.  I personally would throw out the OS.  So 4/4.

Interesting, but 4 rounds is not much of a sample size I guess. Your MBB is not catching the ridge nearly as well and bouncing back a lot less. I'll try to measure my ridge and see the differences to your measuments too. With results like this I can understand why you would support the stadium, if they hold consistently
Since many rounds were already done in a previous test I figure ppl can just refer that video as well.  I am only doing quick looks.  I already broke a clip, 4-5 rounds is good enough of a quick look in my opinion.  All together I did post 10 rounds of attack not struggling all that much in the HasPro Stadium.  Also, one of the thing I did see is that the KOs can be quite definitive.

In terms of measurements.  I do have several of the HasPro stadium for tournament use.  The measurements are quite consistent for me.  It would be interesting to see if there is a difference.
(Aug. 03, 2021  5:40 AM)th!nk Wrote:
(Aug. 03, 2021  5:32 AM)Shindog Wrote: I gave compact vs Manta a quick run too.

Manta
BC: Basic
AR: Square Edge
WD: Wide Defense
SG: Neo Right SG , Heavy Metal Core
BB: Defense Grip Base (attack mode)

Roller Defense Ring
BC: basic with bit protector (idk if that is what this is called)
AR: Roller Defense Ring
WD: Ten Heavy
BB: Metal Ball Base (6 Balls), tip worn.

https://youtu.be/t9fKblfJMoU

I have manta win by KO 4 out of 5 and win by OS 1 time.  I personally would throw out the OS.  So 4/4.

Interesting, but 4 rounds is not much of a sample size I guess. Your MBB is not catching the ridge nearly as well and bouncing back a lot less. I'll try to measure my ridge and see the differences to your measuments too. With results like this I can understand why you would support the stadium, if they hold consistently
After some thought, it is a fair criticism to say 4 (or 5 rounds with a Manta OS) isn’t enough to compare to the 10 rounds in Tornado Attack.  Since these are quick, I decided to just get it up to 10 rounds. 

So I decided to continue……

First 5 rounds of Plastics in HasPro Stadium#3 
https://youtu.be/eqeBRY2zEkc
* because of small sample size being brought up, I decided to continue. 

Plastics in HasPro Stadium#3 part 2
https://youtu.be/XTIsTs5a4mY
* I made it to Round 4 and got a breakage. I can be persistent sometimes.

Plastics in HasPro Stadium#3 part 3
https://youtu.be/2lHntO9qNss
*I made it to Round 3 and compact started bursting.  I tried to address this issue, and continue….   I am trying to be persistent 

Plastics in HasPro Stadium#3 part 4
https://youtu.be/LBJprG3iWnM
* I was not able to stop this from happening, compact bursting/separating that is.  I did a few more rounds to the same effect not shown.  I don’t really care to show separations so I stopped for good.  



Overall:
Manta vs Compact in the HasPro stadium.

Manta scored 8KO, 2OS, 3 bursts/separations 

Compact, I guess caused one breakage.

*Breakage doesn’t score a point really, but I guess compact could have won that round.

So, 

If we don’t count breakage/OS/separations 
-manta scored 8KOs
-compact broke manta once

If we do count breakage/OS/separations 
-manta scored 8KOs, 3 separations, and 2 OS.  
-compact broke manta once
 
I prefer not counting the breakage/OS/separations as I am trying to compare to the result of Manta vs Compact in the tornado attack, but people can decide themselves.  There isn’t video for how things played out in the Tornado Attack but there are good descriptions.  People can read that and compare to what they see here.