Beyblade Meta Madness Podcast [Episode 7 Now Available]

(Mar. 27, 2019  2:14 AM)KingSpin Wrote: @[Kei] you talked about the Japanese using single format for qualifiers and only switching to deck format for the finals. Can I clarify if that applies to both official WBBA tournaments, or only Waribey unofficial tournaments?

From what I hear, other countries that follow the WBBA format (SG, MY, TW, HK, etc) all use deck format from start to finish.

Also, you mentioned there being at least one attack type in most player’s deck. I think part of the reason that is so, is because of the need for a sacrifice bey like you mentioned in the podcast. They know they probably won’t get mileage for another stamina/defence combo if the parts aren’t optimal, so they might as well use an attack type as its a better wildcard.

Anyway, I concur with TSO on the point about scouting. It is so taxing and takes away so much fun from competing. Every tournament feels like a intel warfare. It’s even worse for the WBBA format my country uses - it’s three times the beys we have to remember.

Newer players seldom are able to recognize parts, let alone go around observing and memorizing the combos that their subsequent opponent will use. This probably cripples them more than anything.

As I mentioned on the podcast, my experience at tournaments in Japan (in both Osaka and Tokyo) is that the only consistency is inconsistency in terms of the formats used. You name it and I've probably experienced it in Japan. In terms of WBBA events: I've been in single elimination events with no Deck Format, SE events with Deck Format after the first round, SE tournaments with all Deck Format, SE tournaments where battles were only to 1pt, Swiss Format, Winning Streak Format ... Although, important to note that some of these were in late 2015/early 2016 before Deck Format was introduced for WBBA Burst events as far as I know.

You can read more in my collection of reports from Japan here:

2015: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Part-2-...y-Part-1-2
2016: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Part-2-...pid1323161
2017: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-My-Expe...-3-of-3-Up

I also went in September/October 2018 for six weeks and have been meaning to write my report on that ... I'll get to it eventually!

I'm not sure I'd phrase it as being a "sacrifice bey" personally. It carries actual utility. In a Deck battle (whether it be WBBA or WBO rules), having something which has a better chance of scoring you two points is pretty powerful. Otherwise, you're hedging your bets on the 1pt game all the way with little opportunity for a comeback if you fall behind. For example, being down 0-4 in WBO Deck Format is a pretty steep hill to climb if you have no attack type in your Deck, but if you have one, maybe not so much. All stamina Decks might be enough to get you the win–especially against less skilled opponents or opponents that might not have good parts–but against strong opponents you're betting on luck to a higher degree (with regards to whether you'll get the first round win, whether something like a random burst could happen to put you ahead if you go down in the match) in that case. With attack it is up to you to execute, so you're in the driver's seat especially in a meta filled with stamina users.

Although, I realize there may be different considerations to be made when playing the WBBA Deck Format because of the differing format and game rules in the WBBA. But nevertheless, I do think and have observed first hand that attack types have a place in the WBBA Deck Format.

"Intel warfare" hahaha. You have a good point. It's especially hard for people who are also trying to host or judge at an event ...

But it's also true that newer players might be crippled by such "intel warfare" more than anything, so in that sense I could also see the debate for implementing the Pick 3 Choose 1 idea. It's something we'll have to keep thinking about.

(Mar. 27, 2019  3:13 AM)Shindog Wrote: I think WBO deck format is the ideal and most fun way to play beyblade.  It is truly a gem.  My 7yo son who has been blading for less than a year prefers it much more than the single bey format.  He tells me “ I like see what they do and think about what I need to do to win”.  He is that random kid (he doesn’t find this offensive).  He has made it to the finals 4 times I think.  Whenever he doesn’t make it to the finals he is disappointed that he can’t get to the “good” part of the game.

My feeling has been that the best part of the game has been kept behind a “wall”.  I just feel the chose 3 pick 1 might be a good middle ground.  My son and I both would prefer deck format all the way, but having organized a couple of tournaments  I can see that is just not practical.

I think there is a lot to be said about making the game accessible.  But I think presenting the game to newcomers in a more strategic and interesting form can also help grow the game.

I'm really happy to read this feedback about WBO Deck Format and how your son enjoys it! I really think it is the best thing we ever did for Organized Play and it's nice to hear others feel similarly. So, I'd agree that it is the most fun way to play Beyblade. I wish the WBBA would try it.

It indeed has been kept behind a wall as even though the people who helped design it all loved it, we also realized that it wasn't practical for full events due to time concerns (especially with as many people as we have now for many of our events) and the complex and more demanding nature of the format.

While I wish every seven year old who entered our events was as well-equipped, competitive, and strategically minded as yours is, the reality is that many of the kids who join our events are not for one reason or another. I've observed a lot of kids like your son during my time in Japan, but elsewhere I feel like the amount of people (kids/parents) who view or understand Beyblade as a strategic game (or have taken the time to really practice and understand it on a deeper level after recognizing the strategic element) is far lower ... There's also a stronger culture of kids and parents playing Beyblade and competing together in Japan as you do with your son, which I think contributes to this discrepancy between how Beyblade is viewed in different countries. So this and the fact that many children might not even have three Beyblades creates a lot of concerns in my mind when I think about implementing a more complex/demanding format in the first stage of WBO events.

That being said, what I have started to realize as of late is that while the WBO strives to be as open and welcoming as possible ... there does have to be limits or some level of reasonable expectation to all aspects of what we do. This is why we're working on new guidelines for larger events, participant capping, and maybe it's also a reason why we should consider a middle ground solution as you've suggested like Choose 3 Pick 1 for the first stage (at least for small events, maybe) in order to better encourage more strategic play, even if it does raise the barrier to entry to a certain degree.
(Mar. 29, 2019  4:31 AM)Kei Wrote: As I mentioned on the podcast, my experience at tournaments in Japan (in both Osaka and Tokyo) is that the only consistency is inconsistency in terms of the formats used. You name it and I've probably experienced it in Japan. In terms of WBBA events: I've been in single elimination events with no Deck Format, SE events with Deck Format after the first round, SE tournaments with all Deck Format, SE tournaments where battles were only to 1pt, Swiss Format, Winning Streak Format ... Although, important to note that some of these were in late 2015/early 2016 before Deck Format was introduced for WBBA Burst events as far as I know.

You can read more in my collection of reports from Japan here:

2015: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Part-2-...y-Part-1-2
2016: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Part-2-...pid1323161
2017: https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-My-Expe...-3-of-3-Up

I also went in September/October 2018 for six weeks and have been meaning to write my report on that ... I'll get to it eventually!

I see. I have actually read your Japan reports when I first got into the game, but didn't pay much attention to the formats of the tournaments as I wasn't that competitive then. It might be quite confusing for the players there to adjust to the constantly changing formats. But I guess since the game is so ingrained in their culture, they wouldn't have much trouble adjusting to different rulesets - it might even make it more fun for them to play.

The tournaments in my country are pretty standard with the occasional rule twists. Here's a brief breakdown:
G1 - The most prestigious and attended tournament with the biggest prize pool. Format is always 3on3 deck battle from start to finish. A few rounds of qualifiers are held before winners of each qualifiers play in the top 16 finals
G2 - A mini G1, with less qualifiers, but equally strict ruleset
G3 - Can be single or deck format. Usually has fun "twists" to the rules. Occasionally will be a team 3on3 battle.
G4 - Always single format. Sometimes has fun "twists" to the rules, but held every week.

Rule Twists
Team Format - 3on3, except each player uses one bey and battles are played as a team
Random Selection - Player will dip his hand into a bad to grab a gachapon ball, which dictates what part he/she is forced to use, and crafts his bey with that part within 1 minute

(Mar. 29, 2019  4:31 AM)Kei Wrote: I'm not sure I'd phrase it as being a "sacrifice bey" personally. It carries actual utility. In a Deck battle (whether it be WBBA or WBO rules), having something which has a better chance of scoring you two points is pretty powerful. Otherwise, you're hedging your bets on the 1pt game all the way with little opportunity for a comeback if you fall behind. For example, being down 0-4 in WBO Deck Format is a pretty steep hill to climb if you have no attack type in your Deck, but if you have one, maybe not so much. All stamina Decks might be enough to get you the win–especially against less skilled opponents or opponents that might not have good parts–but against strong opponents you're betting on luck to a higher degree (with regards to whether you'll get the first round win, whether something like a random burst could happen to put you ahead if you go down in the match) in that case. With attack it is up to you to execute, so you're in the driver's seat especially in a meta filled with stamina users.

Although, I realize there may be different considerations to be made when playing the WBBA Deck Format because of the differing format and game rules in the WBBA. But nevertheless, I do think and have observed first hand that attack types have a place in the WBBA Deck Format.

Actually, the term "sacrifice bey" is purely my concept/viewpoint, and I don't think other players here may see it that way. I might have miscommunicated with Wombat/TSO about this, giving them the impression that all the players in my country utilize this concept, when its just my theory.

The reality with deck format is that you're forced to "ration" your good parts. For example, disks like 0 and 7 are objectively better than the rest in every aspect (10 is not released yet), but you only have 2 great disks to split between 3 beys. This leaves the last bey without a great disk, gimping its chances against combos that have it.

In a deck battle, you can't really predict the sequence of beys your opponent uses. So it is a 33% chance of gunning the matchup you're aiming for. Hence, I choose to channel the best parts to two beys, thus leaving the last bey as the "sacrifice". Imagine each player has 100 points of resources - if you channel it like [40, 40 , 20], you'll have a mathematical advantage over players who do it like [33, 33, 34].

In essence, I build my decks to optimal probability. I haven't really discussed this concept with other players in my country, so I don't know if this actually applies to them.
(Mar. 26, 2019  4:31 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: "[Choose 3 beys, select one each round] format idea weeds out random kid phenomenon"

Adding hurdles for new players to jump through is not conducive to growing a thriving community.

The community doesn't need additional gatekeeping designed to keep newer players from doing well in tournaments, that would be received badly by those players. Unpredictability is a valid strategy, and a real factor in the game; newer players can be unpredictable because they're new. Other players can be unpredictable as a valid strategy, keeping the opponents guessing so that they pick a bey yours is strong again. It can be frustrating, sure. Poker's the same way, sometimes you can make good decisions, the best decisions, and still lose, because your opponent made a bad decision, but they won anyway. It is not correct to assume that years of experience automatically entitles you to beat newer players with less information about their combos; sometimes they're going to beat you anyway. That's just the nature of the game, there are no certainties once the beys leave the launchers, there is no longer any control.

I think the Japanese deck format is interesting and would be a lot of fun in club format, but I think the motivations for it discussed during episode 7 were perhaps a bit mean spirited.

How is “unpredictiality” strategy I pretty sure that’s the exact opposite of strategy
(Apr. 02, 2019  5:50 AM)instaburst13 Wrote:
(Mar. 26, 2019  4:31 AM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: "[Choose 3 beys, select one each round] format idea weeds out random kid phenomenon"

Adding hurdles for new players to jump through is not conducive to growing a thriving community.

The community doesn't need additional gatekeeping designed to keep newer players from doing well in tournaments, that would be received badly by those players. Unpredictability is a valid strategy, and a real factor in the game; newer players can be unpredictable because they're new. Other players can be unpredictable as a valid strategy, keeping the opponents guessing so that they pick a bey yours is strong again. It can be frustrating, sure. Poker's the same way, sometimes you can make good decisions, the best decisions, and still lose, because your opponent made a bad decision, but they won anyway. It is not correct to assume that years of experience automatically entitles you to beat newer players with less information about their combos; sometimes they're going to beat you anyway. That's just the nature of the game, there are no certainties once the beys leave the launchers, there is no longer any control.

I think the Japanese deck format is interesting and would be a lot of fun in club format, but I think the motivations for it discussed during episode 7 were perhaps a bit mean spirited.

How is “unpredictiality” strategy I pretty sure that’s the exact opposite of strategy
Why would it be the opposite if you have  nothing to lose and can gain an advantage ? ( ^.^)
The Supreme One when next episode coming?