B-127 Starter Cho-Z Valkyrie.Z.Ev


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MWF
(Yesterday  5:11 AM)MGoldZeo Wrote:
(Oct. 20, 2018  10:37 PM)MagikHorse Wrote: Are you implying that hitting Zenith will cause burst losses, because that make no sense if true. Bursts are caused by the layer stopping or slowing down mid-spin while the weight of the disk and driver keep their momentum and slow less. Hitting Zenith won't affect the layer, and thus cannot cause burst damage or "clicks" to the combination its a part of. In fact, the attacker is more likely to take burst damage since Zenith can't give in the same way a layer would, akin to running into a spinning brick wall. The rubber is actually probably the least harmful part of Zenith to hit, since it'll have a little bit more of a bounce.
I disagree. Rubber has more traction, so wouldn’t it cause more burst damage?

If you hit Zenith the friction would slow the disk but the layer will keep its speed. That would theoretically cause the bey to regain clicks and the attacker would take the full force of hitting rubber and could burst. 

Theoretically Zenith could be used in a tall stationary attack combo. Using the most stable stamina type layer with Zenith and a tall stamina driver would mean that attackers would hit Zenith and lose alot of stamina or even burst. But don't quote me on that.
MagikHorse
(Yesterday  5:11 AM)MGoldZeo Wrote: I disagree. Rubber has more traction, so wouldn’t it cause more burst damage?

Hitting the Zenith disk cannot physically make that bey burst, as its the act of stopping the layer that causes teeth to skip and the layer to burst. I've already gone over why in the above post.

Hitting the rubber of Zenith with an opposing layer would likely reduce the burst damage that layer would take mildly as the rubber absorbs a small bit of the impact because of rubbers natural springiness. Rubbers grip/traction might be a factor though, so I tested it by grabbing a lightweight Deathscyther bey, held it by the driver, and smacked it into the rubber edge of Geist Fafnir for a little while to see how much that could grip onto it. Even after a hundred or so passes I couldn't get the worn down and loose Deathscyther layer to click once, which means the grip that rubber has isn't enough to deal damage on its own.

(Yesterday  5:18 AM)MWF Wrote:
(Yesterday  5:11 AM)MGoldZeo Wrote: I disagree. Rubber has more traction, so wouldn’t it cause more burst damage?

If you hit Zenith the friction would slow the disk but the layer will keep its speed. That would theoretically cause the bey to regain clicks and the attacker would take the full force of hitting rubber and could burst. 

Theoretically Zenith could be used in a tall stationary attack combo. Using the most stable stamina type layer with Zenith and a tall stamina driver would mean that attackers would hit Zenith and lose alot of stamina or even burst. But don't quote me on that.

This doesn't seem all that likely to be competitive to me, as all it takes to beat it is to use something that isn't affected by that contact very much. Neither Archer Hercules or Hell Salamander would be fazed by that strategy and win with an easy survivor finish as they wear down Zeniths Stamina bit by bit.
MGoldZeo
(Yesterday  5:52 AM)MagikHorse Wrote:
(Yesterday  5:11 AM)MGoldZeo Wrote: I disagree. Rubber has more traction, so wouldn’t it cause more burst damage?

Hitting the Zenith disk cannot physically make that bey burst, as its the act of stopping the layer that causes teeth to skip and the layer to burst. I've already gone over why in the above post.

Hitting the rubber of Zenith with an opposing layer would likely reduce the burst damage that layer would take mildly as the rubber absorbs a small bit of the impact because of rubbers natural springiness. Rubbers grip/traction might be a factor though, so I tested it by grabbing a lightweight Deathscyther bey, held it by the driver, and smacked it into the rubber edge of Geist Fafnir for a little while to see how much that could grip onto it. Even after a hundred or so passes I couldn't get the worn down and loose Deathscyther layer to click once, which means the grip that rubber has isn't enough to deal damage on its own.

(Yesterday  5:18 AM)MWF Wrote: If you hit Zenith the friction would slow the disk but the layer will keep its speed. That would theoretically cause the bey to regain clicks and the attacker would take the full force of hitting rubber and could burst. 

Theoretically Zenith could be used in a tall stationary attack combo. Using the most stable stamina type layer with Zenith and a tall stamina driver would mean that attackers would hit Zenith and lose alot of stamina or even burst. But don't quote me on that.

This doesn't seem all that likely to be competitive to me, as all it takes to beat it is to use something that isn't affected by that contact very much. Neither Archer Hercules or Hell Salamander would be fazed by that strategy and win with an easy survivor finish as they wear down Zeniths Stamina bit by bit.
I’m sorry, I should have made my words clearer. The Zenith disk will grip onto the opposing layer, and WHILE SPINNING (meant to make that italic to sound calmer but can’t), will grip into the opposing layer and force it to skip teeth, causing it to burst. There are two problems with your experiment
1. The beys were not spinning
2. The rubber on gF goes inwards, so it makes more contact with the rubber underneath
My thoughts: gF works for spin steal because the rubber goes in before it can actually absorb the impact fully, but it can absorb enough to distribute and spin steal. Sr and dF work without that because they have less rubber. If they had as much rubber as gF without its gimmick, they would be kind of OP. These are my thoughts and please correct me if I’m wrong.
(Yesterday  6:39 AM)MGoldZeo Wrote: There are two problems with your experiment
1. The beys were not spinning
2. The rubber on gF goes inwards, so it makes more contact with the rubber underneath

1: Banging them together with enough horizontal speed emulates the action of spinning well enough without risking hitting one of the major contacts of Deathscyther by actually rotating it around, as the goal is to see if it can grip even the smoother edge and hitting a major contact point when the driver and disk are held in place would result in an instant burst. It's not perfect, but it works well enough for this test when done at a high enough speed.
2: I thought of exactly that and used my thumb to prevent Geist Fafnir's head, and therefore the rubber attached to it, from moving as I did my passes. I can say with 100% certainty that the rubber didn't move by any significant amount, although I certainly felt it trying to move.

Geist Fafnir is actually kind of bleh with its spin stealing capabilities, tbh. The rubber is positioned too high most of the time, especially when the opponent is using something like Eternal. I'd say Jolt too, except Jolt is going to be outspun by the point that would matter anyways. I really haven't seen it steal much of anything.
MGoldZeo
(Yesterday  2:04 PM)MagikHorse Wrote:
(Yesterday  6:39 AM)MGoldZeo Wrote: There are two problems with your experiment
1. The beys were not spinning
2. The rubber on gF goes inwards, so it makes more contact with the rubber underneath

1: Banging them together with enough horizontal speed emulates the action of spinning well enough without risking hitting one of the major contacts of Deathscyther by actually rotating it around, as the goal is to see if it can grip even the smoother edge and hitting a major contact point when the driver and disk are held in place would result in an instant burst. It's not perfect, but it works well enough for this test when done at a high enough speed.
2: I thought of exactly that and used my thumb to prevent Geist Fafnir's head, and therefore the rubber attached to it, from moving as I did my passes. I can say with 100% certainty that the rubber didn't move by any significant amount, although I certainly felt it trying to move.

Geist Fafnir is actually kind of bleh with its spin stealing capabilities, tbh. The rubber is positioned too high most of the time, especially when the opponent is using something like Eternal. I'd say Jolt too, except Jolt is going to be outspun by the point that would matter anyways. I really haven't seen it steal much of anything.
I’m sorry, but your first statement is not true. It is definitely easier to burst beys when they spin fast. There is just no way a human hand can emulate that kind of force. When spinning fast at the beginning of a match, they have more speed and therefore, more force. Speed is the most important factor in energy since e=1/2mv^2. If you make it slow, that will increase the amount of energy drastically. Simply banging them together will not emulate force from the same areas as spinning. I’m sure you know this, but there is a reason that hand spins are slower than launcher spins. It is also a little dangerous to partake in this kind of experiment, as the beys could slip and hit your hand, cutting it, so I would recommend against it. 
However, I agree that gF is not good at spin stealing. I never said it is good, I only said it works. Your reasons are a good explanation of gF’s skill.
MagikHorse
(Yesterday  4:47 PM)MGoldZeo Wrote: I’m sorry, but your first statement is not true. It is definitely easier to burst beys when they spin fast. There is just no way a human hand can emulate that kind of force. When spinning fast at the beginning of a match, they have more speed and therefore, more force. Speed is the most important factor in energy since e=1/2mv^2. If you make it slow, that will increase the amount of energy drastically. Simply banging them together will not emulate force from the same areas as spinning. I’m sure you know this, but there is a reason that hand spins are slower than launcher spins. It is also a little dangerous to partake in this kind of experiment, as the beys could slip and hit your hand, cutting it, so I would recommend against it. 
However, I agree that gF is not good at spin stealing. I never said it is good, I only said it works. Your reasons are a good explanation of gF’s skill.

There's nothing dangerous about having beys slip out of my hands, as they'd just fly out into blank space and land on the floor and just about every part is far too blunt to cause damage at these speeds. That's even assuming I could, as I intentionally used taller drivers to make them easier to hold and minimize the odds of losing my grip. My motions were plenty fast to get a solid grasp of the concept, given how worn and old that Deathscyther layer is because of the narrow tooth compositions of the original beys. If it can't even click once at these speeds, which are admittedly pretty fast for a "hand spin" and while running into what is essentially a rubber wall, I don't see why it would be grippy enough to cause bursting here.

To assuage this "too slow" concern, I found an old rubber eraser to make my point. It's not exactly the stuff that a bey would be made of, but it's probably even more powerful because it's made from a softer and even more grippy rubber compound. Launching my Deathscyther into the stadium at full power and gently nudging it with the eraser once it settled still did very little damage to no damage unless I caught the spaces in-between the gaps by moving the eraser too quickly, and even then that's no different than running into any solid object held in place and getting caught on it. Face it, if this eraser that outgrips the actual rubber doesn't have enough grip to cause bursting damage, there's no way these tiny rubber strips in Zenith would do so either, even at full launching speeds. The eraser ended up giving in first actually, given the collection of small gouges and dents in it.

My tests have now proven it twice: hitting the rubber will not increase burst risk even if the rubber is a nearly motionless wall and the contact occurs constantly. There is nothing left to support this theory, and it is completely debunked by my physics observations. It's time to move on and end this bickering.
MGoldZeo
(Yesterday  11:06 PM)MagikHorse Wrote:
(Yesterday  4:47 PM)MGoldZeo Wrote: I’m sorry, but your first statement is not true. It is definitely easier to burst beys when they spin fast. There is just no way a human hand can emulate that kind of force. When spinning fast at the beginning of a match, they have more speed and therefore, more force. Speed is the most important factor in energy since e=1/2mv^2. If you make it slow, that will increase the amount of energy drastically. Simply banging them together will not emulate force from the same areas as spinning. I’m sure you know this, but there is a reason that hand spins are slower than launcher spins. It is also a little dangerous to partake in this kind of experiment, as the beys could slip and hit your hand, cutting it, so I would recommend against it. 
However, I agree that gF is not good at spin stealing. I never said it is good, I only said it works. Your reasons are a good explanation of gF’s skill.

There's nothing dangerous about having beys slip out of my hands, as they'd just fly out into blank space and land on the floor and just about every part is far too blunt to cause damage at these speeds. That's even assuming I could, as I intentionally used taller drivers to make them easier to hold and minimize the odds of losing my grip. My motions were plenty fast to get a solid grasp of the concept, given how worn and old that Deathscyther layer is because of the narrow tooth compositions of the original beys. If it can't even click once at these speeds, which are admittedly pretty fast for a "hand spin" and while running into what is essentially a rubber wall, I don't see why it would be grippy enough to cause bursting here.

To assuage this "too slow" concern, I found an old rubber eraser to make my point. It's not exactly the stuff that a bey would be made of, but it's probably even more powerful because it's made from a softer and even more grippy rubber compound. Launching my Deathscyther into the stadium at full power and gently nudging it with the eraser once it settled still did very little damage to no damage unless I caught the spaces in-between the gaps by moving the eraser too quickly, and even then that's no different than running into any solid object held in place and getting caught on it. Face it, if this eraser that outgrips the actual rubber doesn't have enough grip to cause bursting damage, there's no way these tiny rubber strips in Zenith would do so either, even at full launching speeds. The eraser ended up giving in first actually, given the collection of small gouges and dents in it.

My tests have now proven it twice: hitting the rubber will not increase burst risk even if the rubber is a nearly motionless wall and the contact occurs constantly. There is nothing left to support this theory, and it is completely debunked by my physics observations. It's time to move on and end this bickering.

There are a dozen ways I could disprove this, but to put it simply, if you set a bey into the stadium and leave it motionless, and then launch another one at it, chances are, it will not burst. The force is simply not coming from the same sides, nor is it enough because both sides need to be moving, creating a lot more kinetic energy. On top of that, the rubber needs to have something supporting it, or else it will be like hitting a pillow. On top of that too, it will not burst the other bey all the time. Anyway, as you said, this has really gone on long enough and we should end it. If you agree, I would strongly urge you not to reply 🙂
What size is evolution anyway? I have thoughts that the massive gaps between the big disc at the end could mean that Evolution will be bigger than Variable in radius.
BeyCrafter
(Today  3:13 AM)IronFace879 Wrote: What size is evolution anyway? I have thoughts that the massive gaps between the big disc at the end could mean that Evolution will be bigger than Variable in radius.

Looks to be the same size or smaller on some of the angles to me.
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