Attack is Useless

(Jan. 24, 2019  3:52 AM)Rouzuke Wrote:
(Jan. 23, 2019  5:40 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Attack was useless until Cho-Z Valkyrie was released.

Unfortunately, we still have issues like Bearing left spin being allowed in the meta.


You can actually counter by having at least 2 spin mode changers (that'll automatically be CZ-S and Sr) in your deck, and either a left or right spin with high Burst resistance/LAD (most probably hS/aH will take that spot)

Just because Left Spin Bearing has become quite the strongest standing combo doesn't necessarily mean it should not be allowed in the meta, unless it became a ban to combine Beys with Burst stoppers with Bearing. It all comes down to which Beys are prominent in each tournament. Heck, you can put a limit on Beys that can be used in a tournament if you're the organizer.

Attack wasn't really useless even with the appearance of Bearing. We just lacked enough good parts to make Attack as effective as the Stamina/Defense hybrid domination in the meta.

You aren't allowed to mode change CzS or Sr under WBO rules. Bearing is the counter to passive beys, like rP and aH, so really only hS on Destroy does anything.

It shouldn't be allowed in the meta because it warps the game around it and reduces part diversity. If Bearing on left/dual spin did not exist, we could let Sr and CzS be allowed to mode change without a problem. Attack and defense would both become more meta relevant since neither could just auto lose to opposite spin bearing.

Bearing wasn't really relevant on its appearance. Beys were lighter and easier to burst back then. We had the option of a left spin attack type, which we don't really have right now. Attack became useless because they got completely outclassed by hS, aH, and rP. We had Sr.0L.Br as a counter to aH and rP. Then we saw dumb stuff like rP using Bearing with the passive meta, proof that attack was a dead type and the meta was in a terrible spot.

Bearing is the type of part that shouldn't ever be meta viable because its weakness should make it easy to beat. Whenever it is meta, that weakness doesn't exist, which shows there's a problem.
(Jan. 25, 2019  12:36 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote:
(Jan. 24, 2019  3:52 AM)Rouzuke Wrote: You can actually counter by having at least 2 spin mode changers (that'll automatically be CZ-S and Sr) in your deck, and either a left or right spin with high Burst resistance/LAD (most probably hS/aH will take that spot)

Just because Left Spin Bearing has become quite the strongest standing combo doesn't necessarily mean it should not be allowed in the meta, unless it became a ban to combine Beys with Burst stoppers with Bearing. It all comes down to which Beys are prominent in each tournament. Heck, you can put a limit on Beys that can be used in a tournament if you're the organizer.

Attack wasn't really useless even with the appearance of Bearing. We just lacked enough good parts to make Attack as effective as the Stamina/Defense hybrid domination in the meta.

You aren't allowed to mode change CzS or Sr under WBO rules. Bearing is the counter to passive beys, like rP and aH, so really only hS on Destroy does anything.

It shouldn't be allowed in the meta because it warps the game around it and reduces part diversity. If Bearing on left/dual spin did not exist, we could let Sr and CzS be allowed to mode change without a problem. Attack and defense would both become more meta relevant since neither could just auto lose to opposite spin bearing.

Bearing wasn't really relevant on its appearance. Beys were lighter and easier to burst back then. We had the option of a left spin attack type, which we don't really have right now. Attack became useless because they got completely outclassed by hS, aH, and rP. We had Sr.0L.Br as a counter to aH and rP. Then we saw dumb stuff like rP using Bearing with the passive meta, proof that attack was a dead type and the meta was in a terrible spot.

Bearing is the type of part that shouldn't ever be meta viable because its weakness should make it easy to beat. Whenever it is meta, that weakness doesn't exist, which shows there's a problem.

Those are valid points raised, but I guess this is just what happened to Metal Fight meta too. But tops were meant to spin long, and Attack types were just designed to hit for KO and/or Burst and have mobility until the short stamina runs out. In the long run, it really boils down to whether tournaments would limit the parts used in order to have a more balanced and fair fights.

I'm not arguing that Bearing is not a problem, I'm just saying that Attack still isn't dead as long as you know how to aim and effectively use a pure Attack type combo even against left spin Bearing/Atomic/Eternal users
(Jan. 25, 2019  4:32 AM)Rouzuke Wrote:
(Jan. 25, 2019  12:36 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: You aren't allowed to mode change CzS or Sr under WBO rules. Bearing is the counter to passive beys, like rP and aH, so really only hS on Destroy does anything.

It shouldn't be allowed in the meta because it warps the game around it and reduces part diversity. If Bearing on left/dual spin did not exist, we could let Sr and CzS be allowed to mode change without a problem. Attack and defense would both become more meta relevant since neither could just auto lose to opposite spin bearing.

Bearing wasn't really relevant on its appearance. Beys were lighter and easier to burst back then. We had the option of a left spin attack type, which we don't really have right now. Attack became useless because they got completely outclassed by hS, aH, and rP. We had Sr.0L.Br as a counter to aH and rP. Then we saw dumb stuff like rP using Bearing with the passive meta, proof that attack was a dead type and the meta was in a terrible spot.

Bearing is the type of part that shouldn't ever be meta viable because its weakness should make it easy to beat. Whenever it is meta, that weakness doesn't exist, which shows there's a problem.

Those are valid points raised, but I guess this is just what happened to Metal Fight meta too. But tops were meant to spin long, and Attack types were just designed to hit for KO and/or Burst and have mobility until the short stamina runs out. In the long run, it really boils down to whether tournaments would limit the parts used in order to have a more balanced and fair fights.

I'm not arguing that Bearing is not a problem, I'm just saying that Attack still isn't dead as long as you know how to aim and effectively use a pure Attack type combo even against left spin Bearing/Atomic/Eternal users


Attack isn't dead anymore with Cho-Z Valkyrie. Before then, almost all tops saw 0 usage of attack types and even usage on rP.10.Br
just get a good attack type like luinor l3 or 4
(Jan. 25, 2019  12:36 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: It shouldn't be allowed in the meta because it warps the game around it and reduces part diversity. If Bearing on left/dual spin did not exist, we could let Sr and CzS be allowed to mode change without a problem. Attack and defense would both become more meta relevant since neither could just auto lose to opposite spin bearing.

Bearing wasn't really relevant on its appearance. Beys were lighter and easier to burst back then. We had the option of a left spin attack type, which we don't really have right now. Attack became useless because they got completely outclassed by hS, aH, and rP. We had Sr.0L.Br as a counter to aH and rP. Then we saw dumb stuff like rP using Bearing with the passive meta, proof that attack was a dead type and the meta was in a terrible spot.

Bearing is the type of part that shouldn't ever be meta viable because its weakness should make it easy to beat. Whenever it is meta, that weakness doesn't exist, which shows there's a problem.

The Driver is not the problem; dual-spin mode change is. Even if it was deemed illegal only for Bearing, it would still be a powerful ability on many other Drivers. Back when I was in Japan in September/October 2018 for instance they weren't only using things like Sr on Bearing; they also use it on Ωcta, Atomic, Xtend Plus and so forth. You're allowed to mode change in Japan with Sr and that was really the only reason it was  still relevant; because the mode change ability is just so strong.

People were apprehensive about Bearing upon release because of the weak spring, so the next best thing in terms of LAD at the time–Destroy–took on a prominent role (Destroy was also cheaper to obtain). However, to say Bearing "wasn't really relevant on its appearance" is untrue. Here are a few tournaments from the months following its release where it made an appearance in the Top 3 Winning combos:

https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning...pid1409165
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning...pid1409451
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning...pid1414380
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning...pid1417351

Usage only trended upwards as the months went on after this.

Attack became increasingly useless after the release of hS, aH, and rP ... until they released X'. nL and bL Hn' and X' can take care of hS Br pretty easily, for instance. Something like 超V X' also has a chance if you can shoot well (it's harder of course, but certainly not an auto-lose). The weakness is there. It's just a matter of whether people want to exploit it or not (which most don't because they aren't confident enough with Attack, or because they don't have Hn' or X').

If anything, for the WBO I would say the problem lies in the first stage where it can be difficult to justify going for Attack against random opponents that you have no information on. But it is a viable choice for people you have more experience with. Final Stage Deck Format is another story entirely; the diversity of that format quells any of the issues Attack might have because you can build your deck around countering multiple different types of Beyblades.
I'm wondering what makes X' and Hn' so special. Can you briefly explain it?
(Jan. 30, 2019  9:14 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: I'm wondering what makes X' and Hn' so special. Can you briefly explain it?

They have softer rubber and a gold spring that makes them more burst Resistance
And what does the softer rubber do to the speed of wear, friction, and stability?
(Jan. 30, 2019  9:24 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: And what does the softer rubber do to the speed of wear, friction, and stability?

It makes it faster and makes it wear faster and the stability is normal
(Jan. 30, 2019  9:00 PM)Kei Wrote:
(Jan. 25, 2019  12:36 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: It shouldn't be allowed in the meta because it warps the game around it and reduces part diversity. If Bearing on left/dual spin did not exist, we could let Sr and CzS be allowed to mode change without a problem. Attack and defense would both become more meta relevant since neither could just auto lose to opposite spin bearing.

Bearing wasn't really relevant on its appearance. Beys were lighter and easier to burst back then. We had the option of a left spin attack type, which we don't really have right now. Attack became useless because they got completely outclassed by hS, aH, and rP. We had Sr.0L.Br as a counter to aH and rP. Then we saw dumb stuff like rP using Bearing with the passive meta, proof that attack was a dead type and the meta was in a terrible spot.

Bearing is the type of part that shouldn't ever be meta viable because its weakness should make it easy to beat. Whenever it is meta, that weakness doesn't exist, which shows there's a problem.

The Driver is not the problem; dual-spin mode change is. Even if it was deemed illegal only for Bearing, it would still be a powerful ability on many other Drivers. Back when I was in Japan in September/October 2018 for instance they weren't only using things like Sr on Bearing; they also use it on Ωcta, Atomic, Xtend Plus and so forth. You're allowed to mode change in Japan with Sr and that was really the only reason it was  still relevant; because the mode change ability is just so strong.

People were apprehensive about Bearing upon release because of the weak spring, so the next best thing in terms of LAD at the time–Destroy–took on a prominent role (Destroy was also cheaper to obtain). However, to say Bearing "wasn't really relevant on its appearance" is untrue. Here are a few tournaments from the months following its release where it made an appearance in the Top 3 Winning combos:

https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning...pid1409165
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning...pid1409451
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning...pid1414380
https://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Winning...pid1417351

Usage only trended upwards as the months went on after this.

Attack became increasingly useless after the release of hS, aH, and rP ... until they released X'. nL and bL Hn' and X' can take care of hS Br pretty easily, for instance. Something like 超V X' also has a chance if you can shoot well (it's harder of course, but certainly not an auto-lose). The weakness is there. It's just a matter of whether people want to exploit it or not (which most don't because they aren't confident enough with Attack, or because they don't have Hn' or X').

If anything, for the WBO I would say the problem lies in the first stage where it can be difficult to justify going for Attack against random opponents that you have no information on. But it is a viable choice for people you have more experience with. Final Stage Deck Format is another story entirely; the diversity of that format quells any of the issues Attack might have because you can build your deck around countering multiple different types of Beyblades.

Except with layers like 超V, 超S, and maybe 超A, there are multiple offensive options to take care of Sr even if it can change modes on drivers like Atomic and Xtend+ because the layer is light enough. I can't really comment on Octa since I don't have much information on how that part works other than it adds weight. We also have to note that Japan (at least to my knowledge) doesn't have a mode change clause that would allow only 1 mode change of Sr and 超S. This could be a different story for allowing mode changes on Hasbro's Sr-S3.

Even after the release of X' and Hn', there were very few tops that used attack types. Things like nL and bL are exclusive counters to beat out hS on Br and Sr on anything, but using that layer in almost any other circumstance, such as the popular hS on Ds and other layers like rP and aH, would make the combo nearly void.

Bearing is countered by attack, so attack sucking and Bearing being too good (as it's weaknesses are negated) aren't issues created by each other. It's the fact that in a poor meta where Bearing can be used greedily (like on rP), attack is only viable just to counter Bearing. It creates are very annoying triangle format where Bearing beats Atomic/Eternal, Atomic/Eternal (in the specific meta that was pre 超V) beats attack types, and attack beats Bearing, except attack only beats Bearing reliably if it can match spin direction. Sure, 超V is a remedy to attack being useless, but you still have the issue that Bearing can beat out everything as long as it is the opposite spin direction of its opponent. This is where a layer like 超S and Sr have to suffer since they use Bearing too efficiently. Plus with the meta having more viable layers like 超V, 超S, 超A, and aK (my bets are on Dead Armor on Revive Phoenix being banned), it's harder to use a niche counter to left spin Bearing like nL and bL. Pretty much only 超S on Ds will be able to beat opposite spin Bearing reliably.

Even if 超S would be too strong being able to mode change, Sr is been power crept enough by now that letting it mode change, even with Bearing, would not break the meta.
(Jan. 30, 2019  9:14 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: I'm wondering what makes X' and Hn' so special. Can you briefly explain it?

Xtreme Dash:
- Softer rubber (tighter, more sustained potential flower pattern when banked and moves faster, but unfortunately wears faster)
- Tighter spring (basically does not ever burst, and it's virtually impossible when combining it with the burst stoppers of new layers like 超V)

Hunter Dash:
- Pretty sure the rubber on this one is actually the same as regular Hn?
- Tighter spring

For Xtreme Dash, the movement and pattern it can produce is sublime. Everything combines to make the hits it can dish out a lot stronger or more easily achievable than those you could maybe get with regular Xtreme. The tighter spring also removes the self-bursting worry that plagued Burst attackers from the beginning of the series.

Hunter Dash rubber and movement wise is the same as the original I think, but the tighter spring is enough to make it viable because against things like Bearing you don't always need the most speed, but just the ability to launch hard and not worry. It (and X') brought Nightmare Longinus in particular back from the dead because the main issue it had previously as time went on was its tendency to self-burst against the new Cho-Z Beyblades.

(Jan. 30, 2019  9:48 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Except with layers like 超V, 超S, and maybe 超A, there are multiple offensive options to take care of Sr even if it can change modes on drivers like Atomic and Xtend+ because the layer is light enough. I can't really comment on Octa since I don't have much information on how that part works other than it adds weight. We also have to note that Japan (at least to my knowledge) doesn't have a mode change clause that would allow only 1 mode change of Sr and 超S. This could be a different story for allowing mode changes on Hasbro's Sr-S3.

People would probably use 超S instead of Sr if it was allowed to change modes currently. Still not amazing defensively, but better than Sr probably. I only mentioned Sr since it was relevant to my anecdote from Sept/Oct 2018.

However, the issue is that even though it may be vulnerable to Attack even on Drivers other than Bearing, it still would allow you to effectively counter the vast majority of combos in the game with little risk involved. For example, right now if you pick Archer Hercules Revolve and come up against Hell Salamander Destroy, tough luck. But if you can use 超S Revolve and mode change is allowed, switch to left spin and you're golden. No fear at all. You can also switch to the opposite spin direction of any attackers you run in to, which will make things harder for them.

That being said, Sr being able to mode change would still be powerful for similar stamina reasons even if it can be beaten more easily by attack. If we were to consider allowing it for Sr specifically, we'd have to see some test results.

(Jan. 30, 2019  9:48 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Even after the release of X' and Hn', there were very few tops that used attack types.

What's not so important is the number used as there is availability (and quick wear for X') issues involved which lower their potential usage (as well as the fact that Attack types in general require more practice and people were–rightfully so–probably biased against Attack in Burst for a while given how bad it was last summer) and ultimately skew any statistics we try to create. This factor has to be considered.

What is important is the objective fact that Attack was made viable again with the release of those parts.

But if we want to talk numbers: in spite of the above issues, while the overall number of rubber-based attack users among top three finishers since they were released is somewhat low, 66% (10/15) of tournaments I was able to find data for (starting from Sept 2018 - Now) had at least one rubber-based attacker included. Combos which aren't viable never make it into the winning combinations list that much.

Attack could be better, but it's legitimately viable nevertheless right now in the right hands.

Maybe Attack would be better if left-spin didn't exist, but it does and is a fundamental aspect of the game players need to adapt to. So it's not going anywhere (except maybe in Burst Classic haha, but certainly not in the main format). Assuming you would lose against a left-spin Beyblade using a right-spin Attacker (which might not happen), the existence of left-spin doesn't also eradicate all of the other uses that it has against right-spin Beyblades. There's a lot more right-spin Beyblades out there than left-spin. If someone has a deck of rP, aH, and hS that's still 2/3 Beyblades my right-spin attacker would likely have a strong chance against.

(Jan. 30, 2019  9:48 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Things like nL and bL are exclusive counters to beat out hS on Br and Sr on anything, but using that layer in almost any other circumstance, such as the popular hS on Ds and other layers like rP and aH, would make the combo nearly void.

nL and bL would have a chance against hS Ds for sure. And being able to basically lock your opponent out of using the top LAD left-spinning combo in the game during Deck Format by having one of them in your deck can be extremely powerful, I would say.

But of course, you wouldn't use them against right spin haha
(Jan. 31, 2019  5:26 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Jan. 30, 2019  9:48 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Except with layers like 超V, 超S, and maybe 超A, there are multiple offensive options to take care of Sr even if it can change modes on drivers like Atomic and Xtend+ because the layer is light enough. I can't really comment on Octa since I don't have much information on how that part works other than it adds weight. We also have to note that Japan (at least to my knowledge) doesn't have a mode change clause that would allow only 1 mode change of Sr and 超S. This could be a different story for allowing mode changes on Hasbro's Sr-S3.

People would probably use 超S instead of Sr if it was allowed to change modes currently. Still not amazing defensively, but better than Sr probably. I only mentioned Sr since it was relevant to my anecdote from Sept/Oct 2018.

However, the issue is that even though it may be vulnerable to Attack even on Drivers other than Bearing, it still would allow you to effectively counter the vast majority of combos in the game with little risk involved. For example, right now if you pick Archer Hercules Revolve and come up against Hell Salamander Destroy, tough luck. But if you can use 超S Revolve and mode change is allowed, switch to left spin and you're golden. No fear at all. You can also switch to the opposite spin direction of any attackers you run in to, which will make things harder for them.

That being said, Sr being able to mode change would still be powerful for similar stamina reasons even if it can be beaten more easily by attack. If we were to consider allowing it for Sr specifically, we'd have to see some test results.

I can agree that people probably wouldn't play Sr. People don't even really use it right now. I can test Sr vs every meta layer and combo I can think off when I can get another person with me, though none of the people I know have 超S, dP, and Proof yet.

You can't mode change twice with 超S, so once you'd change modes, your stuck there and can be countered.

(Jan. 31, 2019  5:26 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Jan. 30, 2019  9:48 PM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Even after the release of X' and Hn', there were very few tops that used attack types.

What's not so important is the number used as there is availability (and quick wear for X') issues involved which lower their potential usage (as well as the fact that Attack types in general require more practice and people were–rightfully so–probably biased against Attack in Burst for a while given how bad it was last summer) and ultimately skew any statistics we try to create. This factor has to be considered.

What is important is the objective fact that Attack was made viable again with the release of those parts.

But if we want to talk numbers: in spite of the above issues, while the overall number of rubber-based attack users among top three finishers since they were released is somewhat low, 66% (10/15) of tournaments I was able to find data for (starting from Sept 2018 - Now) had at least one rubber-based attacker included. Combos which aren't viable never make it into the winning combinations list that much.

Attack could be better, but it's legitimately viable nevertheless right now in the right hands.

Maybe Attack would be better if left-spin didn't exist, but it does and is a fundamental aspect of the game players need to adapt to. So it's not going anywhere (except maybe in Burst Classic haha, but certainly not in the main format). Assuming you would lose against a left-spin Beyblade using a right-spin Attacker (which might not happen), the existence of left-spin doesn't also eradicate all of the other uses that it has against right-spin Beyblades. There's a lot more right-spin Beyblades out there than left-spin. If someone has a deck of rP, aH, and hS that's still 2/3 Beyblades my right-spin attacker would likely have a strong chance against.

I can agree we'd see more attack had X' and Hn' not be such limited parts. Hopefully future releases help relieve of the availability of competitive attack drivers.
Wow. I honestly think, differing from the crowd, that Attack has gotten sort of, better. Now with the Burst gimmicks, the Attack types have a higher chance of bursting the opponent than any other type that there is. Now this doesn't completely apply with Cho-Z because it's way harder to burst (literally to the point of impossible due to CZ gimmick)
Most of them are but some of them could absolutely destroy your butt
I can see the rationale behind extrapolating that"Attack is Useless", mainly because decks nowadays just revolve on CZ-S, Sr, aH, rP, hS, mG(?), aK(?), cR(?), dH(?) of which are mostly composed of stamina/defense hybrid combos in the meta. Using attack-type Drivers (whether rubber/metal/plastic tips) against those is probably like hoping for a miracle that every time you launch will guarantee an Over Finish point. The saving graces of Attack are mainly Destroy/Hunter/Xtreme, and TT has improved them to Ds'/Hn'/X' in an effort to provide an edge to Attack, tho it still is not enough given the poor rate of availability that TT has imposed on Attack Dash/Prime ones vs regular meta-breaking Drivers like Bearing, Atomic, and more recently Eternal. This with the fact that the Beyblades in Chouzetsu are pumped up with metal everywhere (which means they're heavier and harder to Burst) as well as having not enough Attack-type potential Layers are probable reasons why Attack cannot make a dent on the meta. bX lost its usefulness quicker than sX or even the original Xcalibur. Why? Cuz the "aggressive" design was not enough to deliver destruction, plus the locking mechanism for Normal/Buster Modes sucked badly.

TL;DR, Attack is not useless, it is just too limited in usage for now because TT has not released Dash/Prime Drivers on the double into regular releases for people to appreciate and practice on Attack launches. If TT actually reads international comments, they'd probably amp up their production and quality check of Attack type potential Drivers/Layers.
They aren’t entirely useless. If you talking about Burst then you are kinda right but now with Cho z Valkyrie and Destroy Dash I can see attack types being useful.
(Jan. 13, 2019  10:56 AM)Geardini1846 Wrote: Uuuh... Guys, I think Attack types are useless now. The beys can't even burst anymore. The only competetives now is Defense and Stamina. I think.

Well, I actually make attack types that have attack estemante so high that I call it a "Peirce" type. Peirce type examples I'd say are Wonder Valtriyek, all the longinuses... longinus'... longinie?, Heat Salamander and Dead Hades. All of these have two things in common: High attack and high speed. If you attack with a REALLY high estemante of attack, it could probly overpower the defense estemante of a bey. If you attack at high speeds, you could cause a ring out. If you apply both in combat, you could burst a bey.............. Though, I agree that attack types only win at the beginning of a battle, not the end of one. Attack types may have little stamina, but if you put a stamina tip on it, then it will be an attack type with stamina. I only think attack and stamina are relenvent, seeing as stamina can be used as defence and attack is an offence tactic. But of corse... Attack can have many downfalls in stamina such as Reboot, Ultimante Reboot, Extreme, Variable, Zypher and Blow; which are the worst tips because of their shape and form of attack. Other tips like Volcanic, Iron and Sword are flat, which not only increases stamina, but it can control its speed as well. Volcanic may be slow at stamina at a first glance, but when it has speed... I beg to differ. Iorn is completly flat and is one of theonly tips without a gimmick. True, it does not mave a gimmick (ex: Cycle has an offchance to force replenish stamina, Atomic is free spinning, Loop combines the two... etc.) but it is actualy a balance tip, not attack. Sword combines the gimmick of Volcanic and Cycle, which can be used for stamina and attack. If you think attack is useless, I guess you're both right and wrong in many diffrent sinarios