Yeah, I figured that's what happened with RS. Also, I think it's worth noting at this point that Variares is the worst user of left spin (i.e. it uses it less effectively than other wheels), so I don't think keeping it up just because it spins left is going to be a viable excuse when the time comes for us to look at axing it.

40/60 honestly doesn't say enough for me for clear wheels. I would like to see more solo-spins in this case, at least, as it's very hard to capture variables this small in any reasonable number of rounds as a whole lot of other factors come into play.

You should check others' testing for Saramanda Saramanda, but I honestly haven't had that big an issue with the gap with Wing as it is, though I don't recall if I used it much against flash. Just for reference as I think I've only seen it in the lower mode, how big a gap does E230 leave between itself and Duo etc? is it bigger than the Saramanda/BD145 Gap?

Also, do you think Revizer Saramanda would be viable, as it would overhang the track with Revizer but have Saramanda's weight (IIRC Saramanda is heavier, I'm about to sleep so I can't check atm). This is a part of my ongoing questions about non-mirror synchrome setups. Is the stamina unusably bad, does resulting poor balance upset defensive use?


Honestly, we really need to encourage more testing in the customization forum at this point, it's just getting ridiculous....

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I know vari is terrible at stamina/low rotations, but I would still suggest to try out a left spin vari rf combo vs something RS. You know, RS still has its quite marked S shape that makes it one of the worst bottoms at low rotations (especially when new)
So just make sure that vari won't start auto winning vs rs customs

---

Oh Mighty Ocean, guide us as we journey through the darkest pit of night.

"Yamislayer, you are what we call Revolution. Your ideas, threads, often lead to something new, and even if not always successful, It's something that a non-revolutionary mind can't handle"

I know vari is terrible at stamina/low rotations, but I would still suggest to try out a left spin vari rf combo vs something RS. You know, RS still has its quite marked S shape that makes it one of the worst bottoms at low rotations (especially when new)
So just make sure that vari won't start auto winning vs rs customs

That's one of the things I tested. Hence:

It has no problems outspinning Flash, VariAres (left-spin is slightly harder, but VariAres has such crappy Stamina that it doesn't matter), Blitz, etc.

Although, it might be a different story against E230RS rather than BD145RS, since VariAres would probably destabilize E230.

th!nk, I'll post a proper response to your post once I've tested Saramanda Saramanda a bit more. I'll test Revizer Saramanda too; in theory it's a good idea.

---

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Flash combos can still KO Saramanda Saramanda pretty well, and it's got absolutely horrible stamina.

---

Some manner of Octopus.

I tested Hades:

Attack Stadium
Launcher Grip + BeyLauncher
Equally Worn WDs
Alternating Shots
Wheels switched every five battles

Phantom Cancer AD145WD vs. Phantom Hades AD145WD
Phantom Cancer AD145WD: 12 wins
Phantom Hades AD145WD: 8 wins
Hades win percentage: 40%

Based on the results alone, it's clear that Hades did put up a fight ... but I'm still hesitant to say whether or not it is equal to Cancer. Who knows how much of a factor the Phantom Wheels played. We need more people to test it.

I'll test this ASAP; I'd do it now but I broke my launcher. For me, Hades has been at least as good as Cancer (better, actually); I'll get some test results to back that up. I did do solo spin tests in the solo spin test thread in the General forum, and Hades spun a solid extra minute longer than Cancer.

Also, I tested Saramanda Saramanda a bit, and while it seems to be usable defensively, I'm not a fan of how big a gap it leaves between itself and BD145 when they're used together.

Most of the Synchromed wheels have that large gap IIRC, but the sheer weight of the custom is far more important than the gap it leaves.

Just for reference as I think I've only seen it in the lower mode, how big a gap does E230 leave between itself and Duo etc? is it bigger than the Saramanda/BD145 Gap?

In "Boost Mode," E230's disk almost touches Duo, Death, and the other resident wheels that overhang the track. There is a more noticeable gap with Synchroms for sure. Every wheel has a larger gap on E230(boost) than on BD145 (and of course the gap is huge with E230(normal), but that goes without saying).

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
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A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
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My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

I'm gonna double post like a boss:

To spark more discussion in here, should we take some formatting from fighting game tier lists and make multiple tiers for this list? For example, tier 1 would be the customs normally in the list, and we could add a tier two or "borderline" tier of customs that are still good and popular tournament threats, but that are still outclassed in some way (read: Basalt).

Such a list would also become a "developing competitive customs" section of customs that are proving to be good, but might not necessarily be top-tier worthy yet. This could be a good or bad thing (I think it'd be good, personally).

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
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A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
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My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

I think if we have the time, it's better to focus in creating a list for the Zero G Attack Type stadium. Currently, the community only has random tests here and there. It's probably better to start categorizing them appropriately.

We can just spoiler the current one under MFB Attack Type Stadium title.

I personally want to see quite a few things regarding Zero-G before we start on a tier list:
1) I'd like to see some more structure in this forum for Zero-G discussion to facilitate those (relatively few) people doing any testing for the stadium;
2) We need an actual ruleset and testing standard (especially which stadium is considered the official standard);
3) Once we have a ruleset, I want to see some actual tournament results to see what is competitive and placing in real life.

Zero-G is still far too young structurally to worry about a tier list IMO. I think we really need to look into a subforum for the stadium where we can have some focused and directed discussion on both old and new parts since basically everything needs to be re-tested. Also, we should make a separate thread in here for Zero-G tier lists so that neither discussion is confused with the other (since, again, we'd be talking about the same parts).

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
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My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

There aren't enough tests to even start categorising things yet. We're probably going to have to hold off until Zero G tournaments begin and people actually start testing, seeing as no one is bothering right now for whatever reason, despite a bunch of people apparently owning the stuff...

But yes, when we do get to it, it'll need its own thread.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I personally want to see quite a few things regarding Zero-G before we start on a tier list:
1) I'd like to see some more structure in this forum for Zero-G discussion to facilitate those (relatively few) people doing any testing for the stadium;

If you mean a sub-forum separation for Zero-G, I think a simple [Zero-G] prefix on the title will suffice for now. When those threads start to populate the forum, it might be a good idea to reconsider then.

2) We need an actual ruleset and testing standard (especially which stadium is considered the official standard);

Rest assured, the legalization of Zero-G stadium(s) is being discussed by the Committees, and is nearing completion. The Committees will then revise / add to the rulebooks accordingly. Having said that, it's pretty much safe to say that the Zero-G Attack Type BeyStadium will be the standard stadium.

As for testing standards, I would assume that it will remain the same, with maybe a slight alteration / addition here and there. Ie: Cardboard under the stadium. None of which will interfere drastically on testing result as it is. What I'm trying to say is we can start the testings without having to wait for those things.

3) Once we have a ruleset, I want to see some actual tournament results to see what is competitive and placing in real life.

This is a chicken vs egg scenario. Without a proper nudge into the right direction, bladers will just stick to the current MFB list or even trying out random combos, which will occasionally win tournaments, but not by any means are representative of the Competitive list. We could wait for tournaments result and test the combos, or we can test combos first, and prove it in the tournaments. It's the same difference.

Zero-G is still far too young structurally to worry about a tier list IMO.

The series is more than 4 months old, and compared to the Metal System series, is 3/4 of the way in term of releases. Zero-G has 2 Random Boosters released already. On the contrary, I feel that it's been forever and it's long overdue. The only reason we might feel that it's 'new' is due to the lack of testings and exposures it has, which can be correlated to the lack of WBO's Organized Play for Zero-G.

We are the WBO. As a community, we should strive to be on the frontline on all things beyblade competitively. The reluctance for testings is understandable given the circumstances, but let's just put those behind and try stuff, like what we've always done in the past.

Also, we should make a separate thread in here for Zero-G tier lists so that neither discussion is confused with the other (since, again, we'd be talking about the same parts).

But yes, when we do get to it, it'll need its own thread.

Personally, I prefer the list to be in the same thread. Currently, this thread does its job well, and members are familiar with it. Less thread means less effort members have in directing newcomers into the proper thread, less search function etc.

I did mean a sub-forum, yeah, as I think it would be beneficial since it would allow for part discussion threads to be created about older parts and their performance in Zero-G.

I'm so used to tournament results driving tier lists since that's how it works in competitive gaming, heh. I suppose I should abandon that mindset for the time being.

I'm also used to tier lists being made absolutely no less than 6 months after a series has been out (typically much more than that) to allow time for a metagame to develop. Under that light, yes, Zero-G is still in its infancy in my opinion.

One thing that needs to be remembered is that it is every players' job, NOT just the advanced members, to test parts and develop a metagame, and that the tier list we create should merely reflect what the community is seeing, not the other way around. This discussion is making it sound like you're arguing a meta can't exist without someone telling players what the meta is (with a tier list), and that leaves a horrible taste in my mouth.

I wholly disagree that keeping discussion for two completely different metagames in one thread would somehow make it easier to traverse; in fact, it would do just the opposite by making it that much harder to parse through than if the discussions were kept seperate. I see no good reason to not make two threads, honestly.

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
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My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

One thing that needs to be remembered is that it is every players' job, NOT just the advanced members, to test parts and develop a metagame, and that the tier list we create should merely reflect what the community is seeing, not the other way around. This discussion is making it sound like you're arguing a meta can't exist without someone telling players what the meta is (with a tier list), and that leaves a horrible taste in my mouth.

We are the WBO. As a community,.........

Just so we're clear. I did refer WBO as the whole community, NOT exclusively as Advanced Members creating the list.

That's good, excellent! Many apologies for that comment, just wanted to make certain.

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
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My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

So, I wanted to reformat the list to be a bit more specific about what the actual top-tier customs are. The list is sorted by supertype (attack, defense, etc.) and then by what wheel is being used.

---

ATTACK

Flash

• Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Horogium
  
• MF(-H) Flash ____ (105/CH120/D125/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  
• MF(-H) Flash ____ W145 MF

VariAres

• MF(-H) VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Blitz

• Clear Wheels: Unicorno II, Kerbecs
  
• MF(-H) Blitz ____ (100/CH120) (RF/R2F)

---

DEFENSE

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer, Cygnus
  
• MF-H Duo ____ (BD145/E230) (CS/RB/RDF/RS/RSF)

Reviser Reviser

• MSF-H Revizer Revizer (BD145/E230) (CS/RB/RDF/RS/RSF)

---

STAMINA

Phantom

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Cygnus, Hades
  
• Phantom ____ 85 (EDS/EWD/WD)
  
• Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/SWD/WD)
  
• Phantom ____ BD145 EDS
  
• Phantom ____ (TH170/230) D/SD

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Cygnus
  
• Duo ____ W145 EWD/SWD/WD
  
• Duo ____ BD145 EDS
  
• Duo ____ 160 PD
  
• Duo ____ TH170/230 D/SD

---

BALANCE

• MF(-H, -M) Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus) 230 MB
  
• MF(-H) L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  
• MF(-H) Diablo (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) BD145 RF/R2F
  

This is a pretty rough draft of what I was thinking and I'd love help fixing stuff up. Basically I wanted to list all the combos using a certain wheel that are actually effective, rather than people thinking if they use WD on 230 then it fits the bill of being a competitive combo.

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
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A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
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My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

That's basically what I was thinking. Wheels are definitely the definitive part of MFB combos so this should answer one of Kei's complaints, at least.

It will still need an update for newer stuff, I'm very much not up to date, been too busy with plastics, but Dragooon definitely needs to go up in whatever works.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I think that looks way too complicated. 230D can get a separate line, but otherwise I believe we could really just do it like this, for instance :

Phantom Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 85EDS/EWD/WD, W145EWD/SWD/WD, BD145EDS, or TH170/230D/SD

I think that looks way too complicated. 230D can get a separate line, but otherwise I believe we could really just do it like this, for instance :

Phantom Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus/Hades 85EDS/EWD/WD, W145EWD/SWD/WD, BD145EDS, or TH170/230D/SD

This is totally legit, actually. I wouldn't mind seeing the list look like this at all.

---

Anyway, anyone have any thoughts on if anything should be added or removed?

As far as removed goes, I actually went ahead and took Death off the list since Syncrhoms are the go-to defense wheels and Duo fills the role of "defense with some stamina" much better than Death does. Death does still do strangely well against left spin, but that's not a good enough niche to be in the defense section imo.

As far as things to be added, as has been mentioned spin equalizers probably should be mentioned somewhere on the list (Meteo CH120EWD, MF-H Meteo TR145EWD, etc.). Also, I honestly think other anti-attack customs like Basalt R145/TR145 RF/R2F deserve a spot since they're really darn good at what they do, and Basalt TR145 R2F also beats other anti-attack as well from my personal testing.

---

A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
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My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

I'm a little out of date as I've been focussing all of my attention on plastics lately, but a couple of things:
First, I definitely support the method Kai-V proposed, I've suggested the same myself in the past.

Dragooon definitely needs to be added in some way, given how well it's doing at tournaments and in various tests.

Killerken Killerken would deserve a place based on zionson's tests of it, but those are the only legitimate tests I' could find of it.

Duo's position on the defense list is a little shaky, given things we haven't listed (due to being outclassed by revizer) still get better results vs attack, it's now more of a balance wheel. If we ever get an attack wheel which outperforms flash, Duo is definitely gone.

For stamina, unless low track duo combos really offer no advantage while low track phantom combos do, we need to list something there.

I'm also not sure about Blitz and Variares. Variares has left spin but its aggression means it can't make use of it. Blitz is already outperformed by Flash, which itself can't do anything to a whole lot of synchrom defenders.


I would have agreed on Spin-Stealers getting a spot before Dragooon came along, now I think that'll probably supplant them.

Does SA165 work for standard stamina? I'm aware of the compatibility issues it has but yeah.

I don't think we can add 160PD yet without more testing, at least of 160 itself. It's really annoying how we cannot get multiple users to test things these days, but yeah... If, as you said, D did about the same as PD, it should be listed as a more affordable alternative IMO.

I am still not convinced AD145 doesn't make the cut for being competitive, it's still doing well in tournaments. W145 may do much better but that doesn't mean AD145 doesn't deserve a spot.

Unless the SD v WD thing for 145 heights has been resolved it should probably still be listed there.

I also think Aquario should be removed from phantom, because it's basically been proven that it doesn't work as well as Cancer there.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Does anyone else have some input, or want to propose an update? I'm really not in the position to do it as I've been preoccupied by plastics, but we're way overdue for an update to this... At the very least, a response to the more recent posts would be nice, if those questions/concerns were addressed I could perhaps try to throw something together? It's really terrible how behind we are...


Honestly, we really need to provide a Competitive Combinations List Discussion Thread that is open to the rest of the forum, at least that way this stuff could get some discussion.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Woww, where does the time go ... Almost everyday I've been meaning to update the list, but now I look at the date and notice that it's been three weeks since you posted, th!nk LOL. Anyways, here's an updated version of the last list I posted:

ATTACK

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Flash Escolpio/Orion/Pisces 105/CH120/125/130/W145/GB145/H145 RF/R2F/MF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Bull/Cancer/Kerbecs BD145/E230 RB/RDF/RF/RS/RSF
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Death Aquario/Bull/Kerbecs BD145/E230 RB/RDF/RF/RS/RSF
  
• Metal Stone Face-Heavy Revizer Revizer BD145/E230 CS/RB/RDF/RF/RS/RSF
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Cancer/Cygnus 85/W145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD/PD
  
• Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 85/W145/BD145/TH170/230 D/EDS/EWD/SD/SWD/WD/PD
  
• Meteo L Drago CH120/TR145 EWD
  
• Metal Stone Face/Metal Stone Face-Heavy Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face-Heavy Duo Aquario/Cancer/Cygnus 230MB
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 RF/R2F
  

Added:
- Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 RF/R2F moved from Attack to Balance.
- Meteo L Drago CH120/TR145 EWD and Metal Stone Face/Metal Stone Face-Heavy Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD to Stamina.
- PD to Duo/Phantom customs.
- RSF to Defense customs.

Subtracted:
- AD145 from Flash, based on Ingulit's recommendation.
- CS from Defense customs, except for Revizer Revizer.
- Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Blitz Unicorno II 100/CH120 RF/R2F from Attack.
- Aquario from Phantom. Duo too?

Considered:
- Saramanda Saramanda/Revizer Saramanda for Defense. Still not sure on this one ...

Killerken Killerken would deserve a place based on zionson's tests of it, but those are the only legitimate tests I' could find of it.

I'll try to do some tests on it myself soon. I can't imagine it being better than Revizer, though.

Duo's position on the defense list is a little shaky, given things we haven't listed (due to being outclassed by revizer) still get better results vs attack, it's now more of a balance wheel. If we ever get an attack wheel which outperforms flash, Duo is definitely gone.

I agree. I've never felt Duo was that great as a pure defensive Wheel, to be honest.

For stamina, unless low track duo combos really offer no advantage while low track phantom combos do, we need to list something there.

What do you suggest?

I would have agreed on Spin-Stealers getting a spot before Dragooon came along, now I think that'll probably supplant them.

Meteo L Drago still sees a decent amount of use though, so it's worth finally listing it, at least for now.

Does SA165 work for standard stamina? I'm aware of the compatibility issues it has but yeah.

I don't have one myself yet (will in a few days), but I've also been wondering; might it be viable for Defense?

I don't think we can add 160PD yet without more testing, at least of 160 itself. It's really annoying how we cannot get multiple users to test things these days, but yeah... If, as you said, D did about the same as PD, it should be listed as a more affordable alternative IMO.

I can test this, if you want! And anything else, for that matter. Once I get my huge lot of new stuff in this week, I'll be doing a lot of testing.

I am still not convinced AD145 doesn't make the cut for being competitive, it's still doing well in tournaments. W145 may do much better but that doesn't mean AD145 doesn't deserve a spot.

I do see where you're coming from, especially considering how we handled the removal/addition of Stamina Tracks in the past, but is it really worth it given the huge discrepancy between the two?

Honestly, we really need to provide a Competitive Combinations List Discussion Thread that is open to the rest of the forum, at least that way this stuff could get some discussion.

Absolutely. I'm not sure why we didn't have one before, really ... even if the discussion there isn't as good as it is here at times, it is always good to hear from the entire community, as it is their experience combined with our knowledge/expertise that create the list in the end anyways.

---

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Added:
- Metal Face-Heavy Diablo Kerbecs/Unicorno II BD145 RF/R2F moved from Attack to Balance.
- Meteo L Drago CH120/TR145 EWD and Metal Stone Face/Metal Stone Face-Heavy Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD to Stamina.
- PD to Duo/Phantom customs.
- RSF to Defense customs.

Disagree with readding RSF, unless it has been found to provide anything RDF and RB don't. Its results were never significantly better than CS IIRC, so unless you can back the decision up with testing, it shouldn't be readded. We removed it for good reason.

Subtracted:
- AD145 from Flash, based on Ingulit's recommendation.
- CS from Defense customs, except for Revizer Revizer.
- Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Blitz Unicorno II 100/CH120 RF/R2F from Attack.
- Aquario from Phantom. Duo too?

Fair enough. Leave aquario on Duo for the meantime, it's not as bad there. However if something else comes along (Hades, for example) then it should be cut.

If you're cutting blitz, why is variares still up? They're roughly equal IMO and variares hyper aggressive shape means its spin direction doesn't change its performance noticeably (it's a total waste of dual spin).

Considered:
- Saramanda Saramanda/Revizer Saramanda for Defense. Still not sure on this one ...

How does Revizer Saramanda compare to Dragooon Revizer (that is, Revizer on top) defensively? Dragooon is heavier than Saramanda, no?
If killerken turns out as good as zionsons testing indicates then Saramanda Saramanda is probably skippable.

Killerken Killerken would deserve a place based on zionson's tests of it, but those are the only legitimate tests I could find of it.

I'll try to do some tests on it myself soon. I can't imagine it being better than Revizer, though.

It doesn't have to be better than revizer, though it apparently has better stamina, just better than Diablo, really. Killerken Revizer and the inverse should also be tested as not many people are going to have two killerkens.

Duo's position on the defense list is a little shaky, given things we haven't listed (due to being outclassed by revizer) still get better results vs attack, it's now more of a balance wheel. If we ever get an attack wheel which outperforms flash, Duo is definitely gone.

I agree. I've never felt Duo was that great as a pure defensive Wheel, to be honest.

I still fully believe it's the best pre-zero g defense wheel, though unlike more weight-based things you have to be more careful with your customization (i.e. everyone who complained duo was defensively weak because MF-H Duo Aquario BD145MB was getting KO'd was blaming the wrong part).
It's just that Zero G is basically "Beyblade Defense Series", which makes duo look a bit shaky.

For stamina, unless low track duo combos really offer no advantage while low track phantom combos do, we need to list something there.

What do you suggest?

Well, I just sat down to try it out given I found a right beylauncher lying around a couple of days ago, and couldn't get LTSC to work at all, with duo, anything that didn't scrape (105SD, 90EDS) got outspun by Phantom Cancer AD145WD, and then Phantom 85WD couldn't outspin Duo AD145WD despite not scraping either. Couldn't do many rounds though because I'm ill and don't have the energy, but that was odd, to say the least. Not sure what to make of it.

Does SA165 work for standard stamina? I'm aware of the compatibility issues it has but yeah.

I don't have one myself yet (will in a few days), but I've also been wondering; might it be viable for Defense?

I posted about this in the public thread, Attack Mode seems to be better for it from Kain_Highwind's tests with EDS (vs Flash MF), but its stamina needs to be looked into IMO (though I don't have one so my concerns could be unfounded). I'm not surprised defense mode didn't outperform BD145, but yes it needs testing and probably will be worthwhile for it.

I don't think we can add 160PD yet without more testing, at least of 160 itself. It's really annoying how we cannot get multiple users to test things these days, but yeah... If, as you said, D did about the same as PD, it should be listed as a more affordable alternative IMO.

I can test this, if you want! And anything else, for that matter. Once I get my huge lot of new stuff in this week, I'll be doing a lot of testing.

Yes please!

I am still not convinced AD145 doesn't make the cut for being competitive, it's still doing well in tournaments. W145 may do much better but that doesn't mean AD145 doesn't deserve a spot.

I do see where you're coming from, especially considering how we handled the removal/addition of Stamina Tracks in the past, but is it really worth it given the huge discrepancy between the two?

If we are okay to continue handling it as in the past, I think it is, based on what I said about tournament usage - it doesn't seem to be hurting it that much. It's definitely running on borrowed time but I think it's fine to stay for this edition of the list.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Okay, I finally got around to re-doing my top-tier list, and boy was it an update. I'll post a cleaned-up version first with a version with an explanation of every change afterward. I posted this both in here and in the public discussion since this is a lot to chew on and discuss.

BE WARNED: THERE IS A MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT APPROACHING, PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK.

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PROPOSED TIER LIST

ATTACK

Flash

• Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Horogium
  
• MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145 MF

VariAres

• MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

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DEFENSE

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Saggitario II, Hades
  
• MF-H Duo ____ BD145 (RB/RDF)
  
• MF-H Duo ____ E230 (RB/RS/RSF)

Reviser

• MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145 (RB/RDF/RS)
  
• MSF-H Reviser Reviser E230 (CS/RB/RS/RSF)

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ANTI-ATTACK

Diablo

• Clear Wheels: Kerbecs, Unicorno II
  
• MF-H Diablo ____ BD145 (RF/R2F)

Basalt

• MF-H Basalt Horogium (R145/TR145) (RF/R2F)

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STAMINA

Phantom

• Clear Wheels: Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
  
• Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  
• Phantom ____ TH170 (D/SD)

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus
  
• Duo ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  
• Duo ____ TH170 (D/SD)

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SPIN STEALERS

Dragooon

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD

Meteo L-Drago

• (MF-H) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
  
• MF-H Meteo L-Drago TR145 EWD

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BALANCE

• (MF-H/MF-M) Duo Cygnus 230 MB
  
• MF-H L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  

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EXPLANATIONS

ATTACK

Flash

• Clear Wheels: Escolpio, Orion, Pisces, Horogium
  
• MF-H Flash ____ (CH120/S130/GB145/H145) (RF/R2F)
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145 MF

**Changes/Comments:

• Added Horogium to clear wheels based on past discussion; we need to finalize the best clear wheels for Flash since there are so many good options.
  
• Removed 105 and 125 simply due to the fact that nobody uses them, and because the other tracks have put up much better results. Obviously this move is up for debate, but seeing as this list is supposed to show both the best of the best and what are the most prominent tournament threats, I feel they should be removed. I am also trying to make the list more concise where I can manage it since I'm adding so much other stuff.
  
• Changed 130 to S130 because S130 is strictly better than its other 130-height brethren on Flash and this is a top-tier list.
  
• Made the W145MF combo very specific since it is more picky about its pieces (namely clear wheels) than RF-based Flash variants. This is also done to specify W145 is the most effective when used with MF on Flash and vice-versa, such that W145RF or H145MF aren't really that good.
  
• Removed regular Metal Faces in favor of MF-H. Beyblades of all types are getting heavier, and attackers need all the weight they can get to compensate.

VariAres

• MF-H VariAres (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

**Changes/Comments:

• Removed regular Metal Faces in favor of MF-H. Beyblades of all types are getting heavier, and attackers need all the weight they can get anymore to compensate.

**Overall Attack Changes/Comments:

• While I didn't change anything other than the Face Bolts on VariAres, the sole fact that it's still even on the list is actually something to take note of. Let's face it, both Blitz and VariAres pale in comparison to the recoilless monster that is Flash, so much so that despite how much I love Blitz, I don't have it on this list anymore. The only reason VariAres is still here is because it spins left, and that's a tenuous reason for it to stay at best. I think if we get a decent Zero-G attack wheel VariAres will have to get retired.

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DEFENSE

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Bull, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Saggitario II, Hades
  
• MF-H Duo ____ BD145 (RB/RDF)
  
• MF-H Duo ____ E230 (RB/RS/RSF)

**Changes/Comments:

• This entry in the tier list has been changed a lot, and as such I expect a lot of questions about it. Hopefully I can clear most of them up here.
  
• I updated and expanded the clear wheel section a ton. There have been many, many heavy and well-balanced clear wheels that have been released that work wonders for defense that haven't been added for seemingly no reason other than the list not being updated frequently. Hades and Saggitario II both hit the 3.3g mark, and I feel Gasher should be mentioned seperately from Cancer since they are different. I did not include Kerbecs or Nemesis because while they are certainly heavy, their weight distribution does not play well with Duo. I'm sure I'm missing a few, so please tell me if I left something out or of one of the ones I listed doesn't actually work well with Duo.
  
• To be honest, Duo's place on the defense list is shaky with Synchroms existing, but I do think Duo still CURRENTLY deserves a spot due to its amazing stamina. While I love me my Death wheel, I did remove Death since it doesn't have the weight of Synchroms or the survivability of Duo, and thus can't really be considered top-tier anymore. If we get a Synchrom wheel that has even passable stamina, I can very much see Duo getting taken off the defense list.
  
• Now for the fun part, the track/tip combinations. I removed a large portion of the tips for each track as I feel if you're using a wheel as light as Duo you NEED to have the right track/tip combo to perform well defensively. I removed CS entirely because it doesn't have enough raw defense to stand up to Flash. For BD145 I removed RS and RSF as well as they don't have enough balance to perform as well as RB or RDF without scraping, as if you're using Duo over Synchroms for defense you should be maximizing the custom's stamina as much as possible. For E230 I removed RDF as in my own experience I've found it doesn't perform as well on tall tracks (when it starts to wobble RDF will scrape), but if I am mistaken please correct me.

Reviser

• MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145 (RB/RDF/RS)
  
• MSF-H Reviser Reviser E230 (CS/RB/RS/RSF)

**Changes/Comments:

• All you have to do is put two Revisers together with a MSF-H you've already got a good defensive bey. If you think this shouldn't be on the list, you're wrong.
  
• The track/tip setups are different from Duo since Reviser Reviser has such amazing defense already. If you want to maximize your defense, put RS on BD145 and you'll almost never end up outside the arena at the price of your stamina. Opposite of that, I kept CS on for E230 because Synchrom + E230 is already an amazing defensive setup against Flash to the point where the slight defense loss from using CS over a pure rubber tip isn't that noticeable compared to the stamina you get back. Note that I did not keep CS on for BD145; I do think that E230 is an overall better track for defense against Flash, such that I don't feel BD145CS is nearly as good as RB, RDF, or RS.

**Overall Defense Changes/Comments:

• I did keep RSF on this list, though since both RS and RB exist I can see an argument being made against it. RS is basically the king of pure defense, while RB has probably the best stamina a pure rubber tip can have. RSF lies in between, and I feel it is a very competitive middleground indeed. Basically, if you want your RS custom to have more stamina, you can either go the RB route for the best stability and stamina from a defense tip or RSF for more stability and no fear of slipping over the Tornado Ridge (RB's main downfall).
  
• I am heavily considering just adding a "Synchrom" section since any given Synchrom has the weight to be effective at defense (even Orojya Orojya and Pheonic Pheonic). It's not as effective as Reviser Reviser, but any Synchrom is arguably better at pure defense than even Duo.
  
• I do not have Rubber Flat on any of these customs, and the reason for that will be made clear by the existance of the next section.
  
• I did not add SA165, though if testing follows my hunch I imagine it becoming the third top defense track very soon. I'd love to see a triangle of defense power between BD145, E230, and SA165 since they all offer such different benefits, though there hasn't been nearly enough testing with SA165 for it to have a place on here yet.

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ANTI-ATTACK

Diablo

• Clear Wheels: Kerbecs, Unicorno II
  
• MF-H Diablo ____ BD145 (RF/R2F)

Basalt

• MF-H Basalt Horogium (R145/TR145) (RF/R2F)

**Overall Anti-Attack Changes/Comments:

• The most obvious change to this section is that it exists! I do believe that Anti-Attack deserves its own spot, and as such I'm adding it to my list.
  
• I moved Diablo from the Balance section to here since, well, it's anti-attack.
  
• Basalt makes its return in my list as I've had great success with both of the listed customs and they are both showing great promise with test results. This is certainly a questionable change, but I think if you are going to talk about anti-attack at all I feel it deserves a spot.

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STAMINA

Phantom

• Clear Wheels: Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus, Hades
  
• Phantom ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  
• Phantom ____ TH170 (D/SD)

**Changes/Comments:

• Hokay, I removed a TON of stuff, so hear me out. That said, I'm not about to say I'm right about everything, so question anything I say! I do want to eventually make this list into a true top-tier list by removing all but the absolute best parts, but if you think I removed anything for the wrong reason, say so!
  
• Before I get into the stuff I removed, I need to point out that I added Hades to the clear wheels. I've said it before and I'll say it agian, I do think Hades is bar none the best clear wheel for stamina Phantom customs, and I'll do any tests I need to to prove it. I also added Gasher since it is different from Cancer and they both work well. I removed Aquario per everyone's suggestion.
  
• Okay, onto what I removed. Some of it is simple like 85; honestly I removed it simply because absolutely nobody uses it anymore. As much as I love low-track customs, they've really fallen out of favor lately.
  
• Though this is an old-ish update, I replaced AD145 with W145 just because W145 is strictly better. Again, I'm trying to get rid of all but the best, so while AD145 is good, it's just not good enough.
  
• I removed SWD from the W145 list. I did a lot of research into SWD and it seems like it was added to the list without much actual testing; as such, I don't want it to be on there until it's been tested some more by more people. From my own experience it's not nearly as good as WD.
  
• I kept EWD on the list even though in my experience I've noticed it's not as good for pure stamina types as WD. I would have removed it if it wasn't for the fact that EWD seems to do better against spin-stealers, a matchup that is becoming ever more relevant thanks to Dragooon.
  
• I removed BD145EDS and I expect a lot of flak about it, but it's for the same reason I kept EWD: simply put, using anything on BD145 that isn't RDF agianst something that spins left is the same as handing your opponent a free win. Not only that, but from all my personal testing BD145EDS just doesn't have nearly the amount of stamina that W145 and TH170 offer. I understand that there is a lot of appeal to having a really heavy stamina type, but when it auto-loses to the ever-growing threat of left-spin I can't justify listing it as being as good as the other two tracks on this list.
  
• Like I said before, my current goal with this list is to only list the absolute best of the best. Along those lines, I removed 230 in favor of TH170 since TH170 is infinitely more versatile. If you're looking for a tall stamina type, you should ideally be using TH170 over 230; I know 230 is much easier to come by, but that's a topic for Build Me A Combo, not the top-tier list.
  
• I considered PD for TH170, though I have had better experience with TH170D and TH170SD on Phantom since PD doesn't handle recoil as well.
  
• The topic of whether Phantom or Duo is the better stamina wheel comes up a lot, and a very compelling case can be made for Duo since it has so much less recoil than Phantom. Still, Phantom is an absolute powerhouse for stamina, so much so that I still consider it a very competitive wheel despite its recoil.

Duo

• Clear Wheels: Aquario, Cancer, Gasher, Cygnus
  
• Duo ____ W145 (EWD/WD)
  
• Duo ____ TH170 (D/SD)

**Changes/Comments:

• I covered basically all the changes for the track/tip choices in the Phantom section.
  
• I added Gasher since it is technically different from Cancer and both work well. I also considered removing Aquario, but I couldn't find as concrete a reason for its removal on Duo as I could on Phantom.
  
• I really, REALLY want to add 160PD to this list. Like, a lot. It's bar none my favorite Duo stamina custom, though I can understand not wanting to add it since I'm basically the only one who has tested it.

**Overall Stamina Changes/Comments:

• Yet again I have to mention SA165. It seems like it could be very good for stamina, but there simply isn't enough testing with it for it to be added any time soon.

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SPIN STEALERS

Dragooon

• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD

**Changes/Comments:

• This custom has seen a ton of tournament play, and from all the testing that I and other people have done it's for a very good reason. To say that this custom is currently a tournament threat is putting things lightly.
  
• Dragooon is an absolutely amazing and incredibly versatile wheel. There has been a ton of testing with many Dragooon variants that have all shown great promise, so I can see this section of the top-tier list being expanded very soon. Currently the SA165 variant is the only one here since it's seeing so much tournament play already.

Meteo L-Drago

• (MF-H) Meteo L-Drago CH120 EWD
  
• MF-H Meteo L-Drago TR145 EWD

**Changes/Comments:

• I'm not going to lie, I was very hesitant to add Meteo to this list since it is so anemic weight-wise, but these two customs have helped a lot of people win tournaments and as such I feel deserve a spot. If we get more Dragooon combos, though, I think this might get knocked off since Dragooon should in theory be safer to use thanks to its weight.
  
• I was really unsure whether or not to list a MF-H on the Meteo L-Drago CH120EWD custom. The thread for it has it without one, but a lot of the time you see the custom being used with a Metal Face. I wound up putting it in parenthasis to try to show it is optional, though I'd prefer to have a more definite answer on the matter.
  
• W2D. From my own experience I've found Meteo to actually work better with W2D than EWD for whatever reason, but there isn't nearly enough testing for it to be added to the list. I think it deserves looking into.

**Overall Spin Stealer Changes/Comments:

• Like the Anti-Attack section, the biggest change is that this section now exists. In the same way that I feel that Anti-Attack customs are different enough to be listed seperate from regular defense customs, I feel that listing spin-stealers under stamina is cutting them short.
  
• Like I mentioned in its section, I'm very hesitant to have Meteo on the list since it is so laughably light, but tournament results are hard to argue with.

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BALANCE

• (MF-H/MF-M) Duo Cygnus 230 MB
  
• MF-H L-Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF
  

**Overall Balance Changes/Comments

• I added MF-M to Duo ___ 230MB per the update to Uwik's thread. I also removed all the clear wheels except Cygnus both since Uwik specified in the thread that it's the best option and because I've found it to be the best clear wheel for Duo in my own experiences. I did keep MF-H on the list since the MF-H variant has won so many tournaments and is very much a huge tournament threat.
  
• I would LOVE to see someone decide finally which is better, L-Drago Destroy or L-Drago Guardian. I want to favor Guardian for its weight alone, but I don't have both to do official testing. Until that is finalized I'm keeping both on the list, though I'd love to see that changed sometime soon.
  
• I considered moving the L-Drago custom to the spin stealer section but this is very much a spin-steal/defense hybrid, thus landing it in Balance. This is actually the reason I'm favoring Guardian over Destroy since in theory Guardian's extra weight should give it more defense, but Destroy is the wheel you see listed in the Winning Customs thread most often.
  
• I heavily, HEAVILY considered adding Metal Flat to the list of tips for the L-Drago custom seeing as I've seen that custom do great things, but there isn't enough formal testing on these forums for that to happen. If anyone else wants it added, they should post some test results!

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A Beyblade Testing App for Android
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

A blog about MFB random combo testing and thoughts
Latest Post: 9/20/13: Finally Testing Again
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

My Customs (Click to View)

• MF-L Phantom (Attack) Cygnus 85MF
  
• MF-H Scythe Uranus 85RS
  
• MF-H Flash Orion W145MF
  
• MF-H Basalt Horogium TR145R2F
  
• Duo Cygnus 160PD
  
• MSF-H Reviser Dragooon SA165EWD
  
• MSF-H Bahamdia Ifraid SA165R2F
  
• MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F (collab with KainHighwind)
  

My Threads (Click to View)

• The Beginner's Guide to Advanced MFB Custom Construction
  
• RS vs. RDF vs. RB vs. CS vs. RSF : Rubber Tip Stamina Comparison
  
• A New, Experimental Ruleset -- Less Guessing, More Skill/Knowledge-Intensive
  

A note on RF Defense: Duo BD145RF performed significantly better against flash than Diablo BD145RF, because it had better stamina and was basically immune to KO thanks to its low recoil, unlike Diablo which is easier to KO. I know I was a big proponent of Diablo for it but Dan was right to say that Duo was better with RF in terms of pure defense - it lacks the attacking ability that Anti-Attackers have (which is the main reason for the distinction from defense), instead just being a defense type that happens to move (and I hope I don't need to explain how the "defense is immobile" thing is just plain wrong another time...)

I think Kei has made his mind up on the number of categories for the time being (Four: Attack, Defense, Stamina, Balance), too.

MF could be added to the Ldrago customs but apparently RDF outperforms it. Guardian/Destroy is somewhat of a matter of opinion and the two are very closely matched even with the weight difference, so I doubt we'll get anywhere with that.

As hesitant as I am to bring it up again, Gravity BD145RDF is getting more testing and doing really well, and is the most viable dual spin combo out (which seems to work well for it against Dragooon, though I haven't given everything a thorough read yet).

MLD: Bracket MF/MF-H as optional IMO. W2D itself requires more testing in general IMO.

SA165 has that issue with not fitting well on most pre-Zero G wheels which is kinda annoying. More testing is probably needed for it still, hopefully Kei can do some of that.

Cancer should still be listed on the Duo 230 MB combo as an alternative. The difference between it and cygnus, at least from what I've seen (as I don't own cygnus) is small, and Cancer works very well for me (though I do have that thing with my Phantom just laughing at my Duo no matter what for some reason).

I disagree with most of your edits to stamina- BD145EDS is a solid, versatile setup, even with the whole RDF thing, it's generally a decent option against Metal Flat, which isn't uncommon, and still has very good stamina as it doesn't really scrape and BD145 has a great weight distribution. It's generally a lot "safer" than other stamina setups, basically a tradeoff of a little pure stamina for a good amount of peace of mind.

Again, AD145 isn't ready to go yet. Yes, W145 works better but AD145 is still very, very viable.

Removing 230 but leaving TH170 up... Personally I do get much better performance from TH170 however a lot of people disagree (including basically everyone who is in a WBBA area), and it still places very regularly.

160PD still needs more testing, hopefully Kei can help out there.

That said I don't disagree with removing LTSC entirely, seeing as I can't get it to work. I assume this is because Duo has terrible scraping issues on any track that is low enough to be useful against 145, even with its good-for-an-MFB-Wheel LAD, and Phantom has such an aggressive top side in either mode that it just has too much recoil to not be pushed into the ground early on any low track. More testing would be nice, but yeah.

Agree with leaving CS on Revizer and would even hesitate to not list it on BD145 there, though again this is only based on what I've read.

Surprised that Dragooon+RDF isn't more popular at the moment, but eh.

And Flash MF - personally I don't think Orion is the only CW that can work. Escolpio's destabilising effect on taller opponents has been helpful to me when using AD145MF, though perhaps EDS affects that somewhat?


I think that's everything, sorry about the lack of structure, haha.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

A note on RF Defense: Duo BD145RF performed significantly better against flash than Diablo BD145RF, because it had better stamina and was basically immune to KO thanks to its low recoil, unlike Diablo which is easier to KO. I know I was a big proponent of Diablo for it but Dan was right to say that Duo was better with RF in terms of pure defense - it lacks the attacking ability that Anti-Attackers have (which is the main reason for the distinction from defense), instead just being a defense type that happens to move (and I hope I don't need to explain how the "defense is immobile" thing is just plain wrong another time...)

I agree. Duo (or something like Reviser Reviser) lacking the attacking ability is the deal-breaker for me, though. Diablo is much more versatile.

I think Kei has made his mind up on the number of categories for the time being (Four: Attack, Defense, Stamina, Balance), too.

Yup.

MF could be added to the Ldrago customs but apparently RDF outperforms it. Guardian/Destroy is somewhat of a matter of opinion and the two are very closely matched even with the weight difference, so I doubt we'll get anywhere with that.

It could be, and I was one of the people who used it extensively for a while, but RDF is better in almost every way. Like I said earlier in this thread:

Anyways, yes, that's what I'm saying. For that combo specifically, it doesn't. MF can KO Stamina customs well, but so can the RDF version with the added bonus of vastly improved defense, and increased precession time. Additionally, the increased overall Stamina of MF is basically negated due to BD145's tendency to scrape, and it makes little sense to Tornado Stall with an L Drago combo, since you'll just end up spin stealing/equalizing once you reach the centre.

As for the Guardian vs. Destroy thing, I agree that it is somewhat a matter of opinion. I'm going to try testing the two soon, though.

As hesitant as I am to bring it up again, Gravity BD145RDF is getting more testing and doing really well, and is the most viable dual spin combo out (which seems to work well for it against Dragooon, though I haven't given everything a thorough read yet).

I think L Drago Destoy/Guardian BD145RDF is more useful overall for it's better defensive prowess (and just weight in general, which always a good thing), but that might just be because Attack types are relatively common here in Toronto.

SA165 has that issue with not fitting well on most pre-Zero G wheels which is kinda annoying. More testing is probably needed for it still, hopefully Kei can do some of that.

Done. Check the Customizations forum. The only issue I had was attaching Bottoms when the rest of the Beyblade had already been assembled. I had to disassemble it, attach the Bottom, then reassemble it each time.

Cancer should still be listed on the Duo 230 MB combo as an alternative. The difference between it and cygnus, at least from what I've seen (as I don't own cygnus) is small, and Cancer works very well for me (though I do have that thing with my Phantom just laughing at my Duo no matter what for some reason).

I agree.

I disagree with most of your edits to stamina- BD145EDS is a solid, versatile setup, even with the whole RDF thing, it's generally a decent option against Metal Flat, which isn't uncommon, and still has very good stamina as it doesn't really scrape and BD145 has a great weight distribution. It's generally a lot "safer" than other stamina setups, basically a tradeoff of a little pure stamina for a good amount of peace of mind.

I've always hated BD145EDS because EDS tends to go crazy and self-KO itself seemingly at random whenever I've seen Pockyx3 use it at our tournaments lol. But in all seriousnesss (well, that concern is kind of serious), do we have any recent tests of BD145EDS vs. W145WD, or any other prominent Stamina set ups? Does it auto-lose to things like W145WD? Because I mean, I get that it gives you a "good amount of peace of mind", but of what value is that? If you're not sure if you're opponent will use a Stamina type or an Attack type, why would you choose this? If you pick it, you may have a slightly better chance of beating the Attack type, but you also will probably lose if they choose a pure Stamina type ... personally, I'd rather go all out and choose either a pure Stamina type to combat theirs, or use a Defense type to combat the possibility of an Attack type.

Surprised that Dragooon+RDF isn't more popular at the moment, but eh.

Me too. I've been wondering if some sort of Dragooon + RDF variant would surpass L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF.

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I agree. Duo (or something like Reviser Reviser) lacking the attacking ability is the deal-breaker for me, though. Diablo is much more versatile.

Yes, but my post aimed to differentiate the two: Diablo takes a balance route whilst Duo+RF is pure defense, thus they're not comparable. RS has found a place on the tier list based on pure defense alone, and I think RF deserves a place on Duo for the same reason.

As hesitant as I am to bring it up again, Gravity BD145RDF is getting more testing and doing really well, and is the most viable dual spin combo out (which seems to work well for it against Dragooon, though I haven't given everything a thorough read yet).

I think L Drago Destoy/Guardian BD145RDF is more useful overall for it's better defensive prowess (and just weight in general, which always a good thing), but that might just be because Attack types are relatively common here in Toronto.

Perhaps, but Gravity seems to be doing some things that LDD/LDG cannot over in the public discussion, though again I haven't really had a thorough read yet.

Done. Check the Customizations forum. The only issue I had was attaching Bottoms when the rest of the Beyblade had already been assembled. I had to disassemble it, attach the Bottom, then reassemble it each time.

Thanks!
I don't understand why TT didn't address this in production, very narrow sighted.
The test results were interesting, based on the height thing I kind of want to hold off on it to see how it does at tournaments but it's only really seeing use in Revizer Dragooon SA165EWD at the moment.

I've always hated BD145EDS because EDS tends to go crazy and self-KO itself seemingly at random whenever I've seen Pockyx3 use it at our tournaments lol. But in all seriousnesss (well, that concern is kind of serious), do we have any recent tests of BD145EDS vs. W145WD, or any other prominent Stamina set ups? Does it auto-lose to things like W145WD? Because I mean, I get that it gives you a "good amount of peace of mind", but of what value is that? If you're not sure if you're opponent will use a Stamina type or an Attack type, why would you choose this? If you pick it, you may have a slightly better chance of beating the Attack type, but you also will probably lose if they choose a pure Stamina type ... personally, I'd rather go all out and choose either a pure Stamina type to combat theirs, or use a Defense type to combat the possibility of an Attack type.

Tell pocky to buy a new EDS lol. BD145EDS admittedly starts to struggle against more 'pure-type' combinations, however during qualifiers when you face things that could have good stamina or might have decent attack, it's a fairly safe choice, and it'll OS a lot of balancey things like LDD/LDG BD145MF which does still pop up a fair bit from what I can tell. Kinda Balance-y, I guess. Now you mention it though, I'm not sure if that's enough to keep it up, though it should still be something we keep in mind depending how things go with Dragooon.

Me too. I've been wondering if some sort of Dragooon + RDF variant would surpass L Drago Destroy/Guardian BD145RDF.

Well hopefully this inspires a few more people to try it out, haha.

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